US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Yes. And DOH has been found by the courts to be non-discrminitory in mergers.

Name one precedent, at any union, in any industry, where after a mutually agreed to binding arbitration had taken place, its results were then unilaterally replaced by the majority with a DOH system favoring that same majority.

The courts have also found, 4 times now, that usapa is completely incompetent as a bargaining agent.

 

[nic4us]

Those who bother to read the 9th can see the difference clearly...

"Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified [that obviously won't include the NIC since it is not possible to achieve a ratified contract with the NIC].

Only the most willfully blind could ignore the meaning of the 9th's words. The 9th concluded that USAPA could never successfully bring about a joint CBA if they were to use the NIC. Forcing them to use the NIC would perpetuate an indefinite impasse to the internal union seniority dispute, thus the 9th did not do something stupid like require the NIC, and it is why they left USAPA to bargain. . . . . . . . . within a wide range of reasonableness.

The 9th not only gave USAPA the green light to use something other than the NIC, they practically implored their readers to drop the NIC and move on.

"they practically implored the readers to drop the NIC and move on." ??????????

That is what your wishful thinking, we won...we won...we won...attitude took away from the 9th. But, that is hardly what is written.

Here is what I took from reading the 9ths decision.

usapa is such a scumbag organization, making such a mokery of the RLA, the NMB, and doing such a disservice to organized labor, we are just going to kick this can of worms down the road and let these pilots cook in a shite stew, until such time as they have had enough and decertify this scab outfit, making the entire question academic.

oh...that..and they practically implored, no actually they straight up told usapa, don't use anything causing the "harm plaintiffs fear", otherwise the West has a binding arbitration they are going to shove straight up your rear, and win the "unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[Phoenix]

"they practically implored the readers to drop the NIC and move on." ??????????

That is what your wishful thinking, we won...we won...we won...attitude took away from the 9th. But, that is hardly what is written.

Here is what I took from reading the 9ths decision.

usapa is such a scumbag organization, making such a mokery of the RLA, the NMB, and doing such a disservice to organized labor, we are just going to kick this can of worms down the road and let these pilots cook in a shite stew, until such time as they have had enough and decertify this scab outfit, making the entire question academic.

oh...that..and they practically implored, no actually they straight up told usapa, don't use anything causing the "harm plaintiffs fear", otherwise the West has a binding arbitration they are going to shove straight up your rear, and win the "unquestionably ripe DFR".

The copy of the 9th Opinion that Leospanker mailed you might not be the same one the 9th has posted on their website. You might want to compare and contrast your copy.

I quoted the 9th's conclusion that the Nic would undoubtedly result in a rejected CBA.

Can you please quote the "scumbag" and "win" part...... PROOF!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Name one precedent, at any union, in any industry, where after a mutually agreed to binding arbitration had taken place, its results were then unilaterally replaced by the majority with a DOH system favoring that same majority.

There's always the first. Any you will be a part of that history. Aren't you proud!

But my point was to answer KOAT's suggestion that DOH is somehow discriminatory. It's not. See: Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S. 335, 347 (1964)

 

[CactusPilot1]

I too have faith in the 9th as well as other courts who know law. "free to negotiate" means just that, and every other section of the JCBA without court interference.

Negotiate all you want. I'll also let you know I am not along for the ride.

Do I make myself clear?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry, TOWTHRKAT - the descrimination was just an example to illustrate that that "freedom to negotiate" mentioned by NLG is not without boundaries. Here's another quote from the 9th:

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.

That sentence is the one the 9th hung their "not ripe" hat on - but it also places another boundry on USAPA's "freedom to negotiate."

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

The copy of the 9th Opinion that Leospanker mailed you might not be the same one the 9th has posted on their website. You might want to compare and contrast your copy.

I quoted the 9th's conclusion that the Nic would undoubtedly result in a rejected CBA.

Can you please quote the "scumbag" and "win" part...... PROOF!

clairvoyance is such an admirable judicial quality. I wonder what other speculative and unproven foreknowledge they can also share with us? Knowing stock prices, gold or oil prices say in six months would be very helpful.

 

[mikey60]

Negotiate all you want. I'll also let you know I am not along for the ride.

Do I make myself clear?

Well if your not here for the ride just what the hell are you here for. Your certainly not burning up board with anything intelligent that you have come up with.

 

[nic4us]

There's always the first. Any you will be a part of that history. Aren't you proud!

But my point was to answer KOAT's suggestion that DOH is somehow discriminatory. It's not. See: Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S. 335, 347 (1964)

I don't think anyone thinks DOH is unlawfully discriminatory. I don't have to look any further than the dispatchers arbitration.

What is unlawful is forming a union with the expressed purpose of overturning a binding arbitration to accomplish a discriminatory objective. usapa fails there DFR if they use anything other than the NIC, unless the West buys off on it.

So says the 9th.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think anyone thinks DOH is unlawfully discriminatory. I don't have to look any further than the dispatchers arbitration.

What is unlawful is forming a union with the expressed purpose of overturning a binding arbitration to accomplish a discriminatory objective. usapa fails there DFR if they use anything other than the NIC, unless the West buys off on it.

So says the 9th.

Since the 9th told you everything you want to hear, Leospanker should not be surprised that donations have dried up.

Can you have Leospanker send out another glossy brochure? I miss the scary ghost stories.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

We are flying 99% where we have real competitive advantages at Philadelphia and Charlotte,” he said. “That will go up more once the Delta slot swap transaction is done. Others haven’t made those decisions and are still flying to places where they don’t have a competitive advantage and are trying to steal share. If, at USD120 per barrel oil, it hasn’t gotten done then it will never get done and shame on the industry.”
The company announced that it would reduce capacity in the third and fourth quarters by approximately 1% from previous guidance. With these changes, 2011 total system capacity is now expected to be up approximately 1% from 2010. Mainline is forecast to be up approximately 1.5%, with domestic capacity expected to be up slightly and international up approximately 4%.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/2011/04/27/us-airways-joins-peers-in-1q-loss-consolidation-a-long-time-from-now---ceo/page1 The EAST ATTRITION TRAIN has left the station! MM!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I don't think anyone thinks DOH is unlawfully discriminatory. I don't have to look any further than the dispatchers arbitration.

What is unlawful is forming a union with the expressed purpose of overturning a binding arbitration to accomplish a discriminatory objective. usapa fails there DFR if they use anything other than the NIC, unless the West buys off on it.

So says the 9th.

I understand that YOU think the formation of USAPA was unlawful. You are entirely entitled to that opinion. Mine differs, as you might expect. Unless either, or both of us, are wearing the robes of a federal judge and just playing pilot here in the forum, our opinions count for nothing.

I'm willing to let the courts settle it. I'm not willing to say my opinion will be theirs. I am willing to say the same thing about your opinion.

I have no doubt that this case will set important precedent no matter what the outcome.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Since the 9th told you everything you want to hear, Leospanker should not be surprised that donations have dried up.

Omigosh you found out Leonidas is broke and can't afford any more litigation. Now's the time for the NAC to be heroes and re-submit your wet-dream seniority list to the company. There's nothing stopping them, right?

Can you have Leospanker send out another glossy brochure? I miss the scary ghost stories.

As soon as all three suspended (with full pay) pilots are back on line I'm sure Leonidas will send you more of the information you need and crave. In the meantime you're free to re-read the previous brochures on www.cactuspilot.com

 

[cleardirect]

I understand that YOU think the formation of USAPA was unlawful. You are entirely entitled to that opinion. Mine differs, as you might expect. Unless either, or both of us, are wearing the robes of a federal judge and just playing pilot here in the forum, our opinions count for nothing.

I'm willing to let the courts settle it. I'm not willing to say my opinion will be theirs. I am willing to say the same thing about your opinion.

I have no doubt that this case will set important precedent no matter what the outcome.

Really! You will have to forgive me if I don't take you at your word. I believe that you east pilots also said that you were willing to let an arbitrator settle this. So what happens when the court comes back and upholds the nicolau?

Are you going to want another redo? Will you only accept it when you get what you want. Trust is something that once broken is hard to recover. You guys have broken your word and the west does not trust east pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

I see the circus is still in town and the clowns are in charge. Once again it is someone else’s fault. Is it just impossible for you east guys to accept responsibly for your actions? It is always someone else’s fault.

Usapa has full time flight pay loss guys working on the communication committee. That is all they have to do. Yet they are incapable of responding with a simple mailing. Leonidas a volunteer organization with guys flying full time can out class usapa.

Any bets this mailer when it finally gets here will be lame.

Has there been a trial that I don’t know about? There has not been a determination by the proper authorities that there was a violation of federal law. Unless there is a trial it is alleged. Someone needs to tell Cleary and the fools that they don’t get to decide federal law. Just like they don’t get to decide what is fair in a seniority integration.

I do have to say, usapa is entertaining. The incompetence is staggering. And these are the guys that you want negotiating a contract and arguing your grievance. the same guys that can't pull off a simple mailing.

As you are aware, a few weeks ago many pilots received a large pamphlet from the Army of Leonidas touting all of the reasons you should hand over your career aspirations and opportunities for advancement to others who have upwards of a decade and a half less experience with their employer. And of course, you are certainly aware that this pamphlet was mailed using stolen personal information in violation of both federal law and the Company's Code of Ethics. We've received many, many calls and emails from pilots anxious for their union to respond to the falsehoods and rhetoric contained in this pamphlet.

The short answer is, we already have. Bulk mail takes 7-10 business days, and based upon the supposed mailing date, we anticipated that all pilots would have already received USAPA's response a few days ago. Just yesterday, however, we were informed that the printing and mailing had been delayed a week, and had been mailed on Monday, April 25. We apologize for this delay, and will be following up with the printer to find out why this previously undisclosed delay occurred. Watch your mailbox next week for the first part of USAPA's response to the suggestion that the loss of a decade or more seniority is fair.

USAPA Communications