US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

I am teaching my daughter to honor her commitments as well (even though she hasn't yet asked me what "integrity" means, ZING!!). Even though the NIC wasn't the West's proposal for integration, let's try to put the shoe on the other foot. If NIC had said, "straight DOH", I could have swallowed the pill because the West ALPA reps had advised the membership that ANY outcome was on the table. The furloughed guys being figured into the equation, however, was never a reasonable possibility because they brought NOTHING to the merger and to include them would have been unprecedented. With that said, I come from a Union family and understand what Binding Arbitration means. Ask Ferris E. if he thinks he was treated fairly by Nic. Currently number one of the West list and he'll be behind how many East pilots? Should HE try to wiggle out of the Nic so he's senior on a wide body?

I think that is the problem with much of the philosophy that exists on the East; "we are entitled to what we want because we are legacy pilots and you never were". The hell with reality. The truth is, Nic presented an outcome that was unreasonable based purely on the expectations of the EAST pilots. The rest of the industry doesn't agree, nor will the courts. It's somewhat laughable the USAPA claims DOH is an unamendable cornerstone of its foundation, even though if flies in the face of the McCaskill-Bond Act that will govern any NEW mergers.

I can't accept your declaration of the, "outcome of something is so bad that people can't accept it and if you are on the winning end of it you need to understand that". First, the West didn't "win". The outcome was more aligned with the West proposal, but had you ever considered that was because the West had a more reasonable proposal? Second, the Nic is only outside the unreasonable expectations of the East.



Wait, your comparing the implementation of the Nic to my child being wrongfully convicted of a crime? That is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd hardly compare accepting binding arbitration to a wrongful conviction. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's criminal.



And what of the moral compass of many of the East? ALPA provided a process for integrating lists. The provided a procedure using neutral parties with nothing to gain from any outcome that was deemed acceptable to all parties right up until the point the Nic was released and then suddenly ALPA was criminalized. They conspired to steal East pilot's career expectations and transfer them to a bunch of inexperienced, glorified Mesa pilots, right? Please. I read this sort of thing all the time on other forums. Then the poor East pilots founded USAPA to stop that from happening. I wasn't an ALPA cheerleader either, but you don't have to have a degree in Labor Relations to see why the West pilots voted against USAPA. It eliminated the 2 party system and the Neutrals and now can you honestly tell me they will provide an unbias integration plan? Here it is:

The USAPA method includes what was essentially East ALPA's opening offer, plus some very weak conditions and restrictions that will "fairly protect the West".

East ALPA's OPENING offer. No attempt at any sort of compromise. And you don't honestly think think the C&R's provide great protections for the West? Then let me propose this. Straight ratio, Captains to Captains, FO and FOs, with those same "Iron Clad" C&Rs to protect the East pilots. Not so generous now, is it?

Quick story: One of my furloughed AWA friends at Virgin America told me about flying with a Captain who was a former East pilot. The Eastie brought up the merger and said how ridiculous the Nic award was. My Westie friend asked, "if Virgin merged with the NEW USAir today, should you remain a captain or should you get DOH at the new company". The Captain responded with, "well, that's different. I'm senior at Virgin and should be a senior Captain if we merged". WOW...doesn't that say a lot about perspective?

Final thought: Pi, you and I may not agree on much, but I respect the fact you are willing to at least try to look at much of what's happening from a step back. No one's view of what's going on will ever be the same regardless of what angle we observe the issues but being able to have a "reasonable" discussion about it says a lot about a person.

Throwing a man under the bus with 17 years was soooo wrong. His furlough saved US Airways and in turn saved AWA. I still blame ALPA and their failure to have a merger policy with any substance. It's about as gray as PIT in the winter.

 

[Pi brat]

Not one worthwhile response in that whole post. Let's try not to forget that YOU are the one scolding Jim and I about how we treat Nos, shall we?


But Heaven forbid I respond and use your own words/rules/interpretations against you to make my point. Then you show your real colors. If you wouldn't have opened your trap in Nos's defense by criticizing the way I respond to him I would have never needed to respond to you in the first place. Same old M.O. Drop a turd and then complain when someone tells you it stinks.

Not a word about USAir's last strike. Not a word about your condescending tone and stupid lecture on what we teach our kids. Not a word about the specific lies and double talk I pointed out from Nos.

You know, it's become just as worthless trying to converse with you as with Nos. Have a Happy Easter. Really.

There was nothing in there worth responding to, just diversion. I think maybe I hit a nerve and deep in the back of that brain you figured out that you crossed a line with the child molester crap.

Happy Easter to you too.

 

[luvthe9]

That wasn't a very constructive post. What was the point of it all?

It was to bring "Aqua" back to reality. your new and you'll learn the west are living in fantasy world. Welcome aboard!!!

 

[Pi brat]

I am teaching my daughter to honor her commitments as well (even though she hasn't yet asked me what "integrity" means, ZING!!). Even though the NIC wasn't the West's proposal for integration, let's try to put the shoe on the other foot. If NIC had said, "straight DOH", I could have swallowed the pill because the West ALPA reps had advised the membership that ANY outcome was on the table. The furloughed guys being figured into the equation, however, was never a reasonable possibility because they brought NOTHING to the merger and to include them would have been unprecedented. With that said, I come from a Union family and understand what Binding Arbitration means. Ask Ferris E. if he thinks he was treated fairly by Nic. Currently number one of the West list and he'll be behind how many East pilots? Should HE try to wiggle out of the Nic so he's senior on a wide body?

I think that is the problem with much of the philosophy that exists on the East; "we are entitled to what we want because we are legacy pilots and you never were". The hell with reality. The truth is, Nic presented an outcome that was unreasonable based purely on the expectations of the EAST pilots. The rest of the industry doesn't agree, nor will the courts. It's somewhat laughable the USAPA claims DOH is an unamendable cornerstone of its foundation, even though if flies in the face of the McCaskill-Bond Act that will govern any NEW mergers.

I can't accept your declaration of the, "outcome of something is so bad that people can't accept it and if you are on the winning end of it you need to understand that". First, the West didn't "win". The outcome was more aligned with the West proposal, but had you ever considered that was because the West had a more reasonable proposal? Second, the Nic is only outside the unreasonable expectations of the East.



Wait, your comparing the implementation of the Nic to my child being wrongfully convicted of a crime? That is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd hardly compare accepting binding arbitration to a wrongful conviction. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's criminal.



And what of the moral compass of many of the East? ALPA provided a process for integrating lists. The provided a procedure using neutral parties with nothing to gain from any outcome that was deemed acceptable to all parties right up until the point the Nic was released and then suddenly ALPA was criminalized. They conspired to steal East pilot's career expectations and transfer them to a bunch of inexperienced, glorified Mesa pilots, right? Please. I read this sort of thing all the time on other forums. Then the poor East pilots founded USAPA to stop that from happening. I wasn't an ALPA cheerleader either, but you don't have to have a degree in Labor Relations to see why the West pilots voted against USAPA. It eliminated the 2 party system and the Neutrals and now can you honestly tell me they will provide an unbias integration plan? Here it is:

The USAPA method includes what was essentially East ALPA's opening offer, plus some very weak conditions and restrictions that will "fairly protect the West".

East ALPA's OPENING offer. No attempt at any sort of compromise. And you don't honestly think think the C&R's provide great protections for the West? Then let me propose this. Straight ratio, Captains to Captains, FO and FOs, with those same "Iron Clad" C&Rs to protect the East pilots. Not so generous now, is it?

Quick story: One of my furloughed AWA friends at Virgin America told me about flying with a Captain who was a former East pilot. The Eastie brought up the merger and said how ridiculous the Nic award was. My Westie friend asked, "if Virgin merged with the NEW USAir today, should you remain a captain or should you get DOH at the new company". The Captain responded with, "well, that's different. I'm senior at Virgin and should be a senior Captain if we merged". WOW...doesn't that say a lot about perspective?

Final thought: Pi, you and I may not agree on much, but I respect the fact you are willing to at least try to look at much of what's happening from a step back. No one's view of what's going on will ever be the same regardless of what angle we observe the issues but being able to have a "reasonable" discussion about it says a lot about a person.

flyinawa,

I take the last paragraph as a compliment, thanks.

That was a well thought out and worded post. I agree with some, some I don't, but one big thing is that a lot of this is perspective and the shoes we've all walked in.

I don't have time to address it now, but I didn't want you to think I ignored it. I will later.

Take care.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It was to bring "Aqua" back to reality. your new and you'll learn the west are living in fantasy world. Welcome aboard!!!

9 first of all he would have had to have been to reality to ever have known what it looks like, but my favorite comment by AQUA , "where do you think DOUG will cut in 2011? Priceless comment, putting first class in the regionals, where is the revenue? Aint PHX!

 

[CactusPilot1]

Mike Cleary Will Be Recalled

I don't really care for Mikey, but I will not support a recall.

Leonidas has him and Seham right where they want 'em.

Just watch.

 

[fodase]

My contacts at leonidas have sent me a new document that has been discovered, this document will proves and supports the fact that as far back as 2006 the east pilot leaders were for a doh or nothing approach. We already had the bradford letter that proves pretext but this document set's the bradford letter in stone as it was written by the east union leaders in 2006.

A short excerpt:

"It is important to note that we need to be extremely careful in
communicating details of our case to you, in such a public forum.
The last thing we need to do is to have one of our communications be used
as an exhibit or for strategy in preparing a case against us.

Date of Hire is not just a catchword. It is a belief that your date of hire and
everything that follows should be etched in stone. To argue a case that is
not built on that tenet, and hope that date of hire could be the eventual
outcome, only opens the door to potential compromise.

At the end of the day, we can tell you that we are more concerned about the
stated authenticity of the case from our Merger Committee. We will
continue in our vigilance and stay by our principals as we seek a Date of
Hire integration. "

Again this is a 2006 document signed the east alpa leadership, this document, when taken in context leaves no doubt of the bad faith the east pilots.

 

[Phoenix]

No DOH. The theft of our seniority has been averted.

Congratulations on penning such a concise oxymoron.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Congrats Fodase, you sure have the smokin gun! MM!

 

[luvthe9]

9 first of all he would have had to have been to reality to ever have known what it looks like, but my favorite comment by AQUA , "where do you think DOUG will cut in 2011? Priceless comment, putting first class in the regionals, where is the revenue? Aint PHX!

I agree, he stepped on his winky, these guys seem to do that alot.

 

[luvthe9]

I don't really care for Mikey, but I will not support a recall.

Leonidas has him and Seham right where they want 'em.

Just watch.

We're watching, let us know when it happens. I have never seen so many scared easties running around, you would think the end of the world is coming.

 

[mikey60]

No it's not, and that's why it's sooooo entertaining to watch the USAPA diehards squirm. NOTHING has panned out for you fools. Three years and you've got NOTHING to show for your actions, except making a hack attorney rich for telling you what you want to hear.

...and we dont have the nic.

 

[mikey60]

Southwest and AAI agree to seniority integration process: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/04/southwest-airtran-pilot-unions.html

We will NEVER give up what is rightfully ours as determined by the arbitration process. Bank on it.

Oh, and enjoy LOA93.

READ on.

 

[mikey60]

We're watching, let us know when it happens. I have never seen so many scared easties running around, you would think the end of the world is coming.

RUN! RUN! the sky is falling, the sky is falling. 9er I'm adding this so cp1 can underestand what your statement.

 

[CactusPilot1]

We're watching, let us know when it happens. I have never seen so many scared easties running around, you would think the end of the world is coming.

I picture 9'ers running for cover. That is, 49er's running for cover in the 1906 SF earthquake. Not a good idea.

Usapians............