US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I am teaching my daughter to honor her commitments as well (even though she hasn't yet asked me what "integrity" means, ZING!!). Even though the NIC wasn't the West's proposal for integration, let's try to put the shoe on the other foot. If NIC had said, "straight DOH", I could have swallowed the pill because the West ALPA reps had advised the membership that ANY outcome was on the table. The furloughed guys being figured into the equation, however, was never a reasonable possibility because they brought NOTHING to the merger and to include them would have been unprecedented. With that said, I come from a Union family and understand what Binding Arbitration means. Ask Ferris E. if he thinks he was treated fairly by Nic. Currently number one of the West list and he'll be behind how many East pilots? Should HE try to wiggle out of the Nic so he's senior on a wide body?

I think that is the problem with much of the philosophy that exists on the East; "we are entitled to what we want because we are legacy pilots and you never were". The hell with reality. The truth is, Nic presented an outcome that was unreasonable based purely on the expectations of the EAST pilots. The rest of the industry doesn't agree, nor will the courts. It's somewhat laughable the USAPA claims DOH is an unamendable cornerstone of its foundation, even though if flies in the face of the McCaskill-Bond Act that will govern any NEW mergers.

I can't accept your declaration of the, "outcome of something is so bad that people can't accept it and if you are on the winning end of it you need to understand that". First, the West didn't "win". The outcome was more aligned with the West proposal, but had you ever considered that was because the West had a more reasonable proposal? Second, the Nic is only outside the unreasonable expectations of the East.



Wait, your comparing the implementation of the Nic to my child being wrongfully convicted of a crime? That is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd hardly compare accepting binding arbitration to a wrongful conviction. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's criminal.



And what of the moral compass of many of the East? ALPA provided a process for integrating lists. The provided a procedure using neutral parties with nothing to gain from any outcome that was deemed acceptable to all parties right up until the point the Nic was released and then suddenly ALPA was criminalized. They conspired to steal East pilot's career expectations and transfer them to a bunch of inexperienced, glorified Mesa pilots, right? Please. I read this sort of thing all the time on other forums. Then the poor East pilots founded USAPA to stop that from happening. I wasn't an ALPA cheerleader either, but you don't have to have a degree in Labor Relations to see why the West pilots voted against USAPA. It eliminated the 2 party system and the Neutrals and now can you honestly tell me they will provide an unbias integration plan? Here it is:

The USAPA method includes what was essentially East ALPA's opening offer, plus some very weak conditions and restrictions that will "fairly protect the West".

East ALPA's OPENING offer. No attempt at any sort of compromise. And you don't honestly think think the C&R's provide great protections for the West? Then let me propose this. Straight ratio, Captains to Captains, FO and FOs, with those same "Iron Clad" C&Rs to protect the East pilots. Not so generous now, is it?

Quick story: One of my furloughed AWA friends at Virgin America told me about flying with a Captain who was a former East pilot. The Eastie brought up the merger and said how ridiculous the Nic award was. My Westie friend asked, "if Virgin merged with the NEW USAir today, should you remain a captain or should you get DOH at the new company". The Captain responded with, "well, that's different. I'm senior at Virgin and should be a senior Captain if we merged". WOW...doesn't that say a lot about perspective?

Final thought: Pi, you and I may not agree on much, but I respect the fact you are willing to at least try to look at much of what's happening from a step back. No one's view of what's going on will ever be the same regardless of what angle we observe the issues but being able to have a "reasonable" discussion about it says a lot about a person.

I'm going to try and explain how most of the east guys I know think. I won't be successful and I'm sure my post will be shreaded, but you were respectful and I said I would answer.

You said you could have accepted straight DOH because your reps warned you that it was possible. I will take you at your word, but could all of the other AWA pilots have done that? Would any of them said "Hey, we have this veto in the TA, let's just vote no on a contract and keep what we have"? Could it be that DOH from Nic would have been easier to take for the younger west F/Os, not because it was the agreed upon process, but because they would see an aging east group that would turn the airline over to them? A pilots position on the list, his age, seniority within his group and his career experience all go into shaping what they think is fair. For many at the bottom of the US list that had taken pay cuts, lost their pensions and spent 15 years or so at the bottom, the prospect of a large number of younger pilots getting placed in front of them and taking what they had been waiting for was too much. A lot of west guys talk about the junior east stealing their jobs, but most I know don't want to steal west jobs, they want to finally advance on the east. They really think that the C&Rs will keep them from stealing west jobs.

You said that the furloughed pilots brought nothing to the merger and the expectation of placement above active pilots would be unprecedented. Both are untrue. In the Airwaves article that the latest AOL quotes Cleary in, they mention that in Hughes Airwest and Republic, furloughed Hughes pilots went ahead of active Republic pilots. I wonder why AOL chose to highlight MO/AL vs. that one? Furloughed east pilots did bring something to the merger. An east pilot never has to give up his number while on furlough. His place is saved and no active pilot can be replaced, except by a furloughed pilot, until they no longer want it. So they brought a place in line at an airline that was still operating. LOA 93, that has saved this company so much, cost some of the more senior furloughed their jobs because of 95 pay caps and the inability of reserves to call out of time anymore. It allowed the company to go into the merger very understaffed, and thus have them disadvantaged by Nic. There the Co neutral agrees with me.

I don't think this merger was fair to Captain Ferris. It's one the things I have always said that Nic got wrong.

I cannot understand why the west says that the east had the expectation of only DOH. Did you read the date on the article that AOL quoted Cleary? 2002. Read the whole article, not just what AOL gave you. Mike lays out that anything is possible. We knew anything was possible because the Shuttle merger was not DOH, remember? A lot of guys over here think DOH is the best, but I didn't run into many that said it was the only possibility. You guys have heard this over and over again until it is your reality. It's just not true. The MEC pushed DOH/LOS because they thought it was the best strategy going into arbitration, not because everyone thought it was the only possible way.

I disagree about the entitlement because we were a legacy. The airline has it roots in the Local Service carriers, so legacy in time, but I can assure you that people like jetz didn't consider us equals.

From where I sit the Nic looks like a massive win for the bottom 2/3s of the west list. We will just have to disagree because I will go to my grave feeling that way, no matter what happens. To many the Nic feels so out of whack that to them it is nearly criminal.

I've said that anti-nic doesn't make one DOH exclusively. You seem to aim that paragraph at me, but it wasn't my idea. A lot of times when I say things, I'm just trying to get people to understand what people are thinking, not necessarily whether I agree with it or not. Like when I say there is always an appeal it doesn't meant that I think appeal is ethical or not, it's just that if enough people decide to not go along with an outcome of something, they may "appeal" it. The American Revolution and the Civil War come to mind, with different outcomes for the one's "appealing".

What the Virgin pilot's statement says to me is how often someone's idea of fair changes with their circumstances. I think if we merged with Virgin he should stay a captain, but not be allowed to take many of the opportunities that I have away, or at least ahead of me.

Fire away................

 

[Pi brat]

Didn't mean to do that.

 

[fodase]

I'm going to try and explain how most of the east guys I know think. I won't be successful and I'm sure my post will be shreaded, but you were respectful and I said I would answer.

You said you could have accepted straight DOH because your reps warned you that it was possible. I will take you at your word, but could all of the other AWA pilots have done that? Would any of them said "Hey, we have this veto in the TA, let's just vote no on a contract and keep what we have"? Could it be that DOH from Nic would have been easier to take for the younger west F/Os, not because it was the agreed upon process, but because they would see an aging east group that would turn the airline over to them? A pilots position on the list, his age, seniority within his group and his career experience all go into shaping what they think is fair. For many at the bottom of the US list that had taken pay cuts, lost their pensions and spent 15 years or so at the bottom, the prospect of a large number of younger pilots getting placed in front of them and taking what they had been waiting for was too much. A lot of west guys talk about the junior east stealing their jobs, but most I know don't want to steal west jobs, they want to finally advance on the east. They really think that the C&Rs will keep them from stealing west jobs.

You said that the furloughed pilots brought nothing to the merger and the expectation of placement above active pilots would be unprecedented. Both are untrue. In the Airwaves article that the latest AOL quotes Cleary in, they mention that in Hughes Airwest and Republic, furloughed Hughes pilots went ahead of active Republic pilots. I wonder why AOL chose to highlight MO/AL vs. that one? Furloughed east pilots did bring something to the merger. An east pilot never has to give up his number while on furlough. His place is saved and no active pilot can be replaced, except by a furloughed pilot, until they no longer want it. So they brought a place in line at an airline that was still operating. LOA 93, that has saved this company so much, cost some of the more senior furloughed their jobs because of 95 pay caps and the inability of reserves to call out of time anymore. It allowed the company to go into the merger very understaffed, and thus have them disadvantaged by Nic. There the Co neutral agrees with me.

I don't think this merger was fair to Captain Ferris. It's one the things I have always said that Nic got wrong.

I cannot understand why the west says that the east had the expectation of only DOH. Did you read the date on the article that AOL quoted Cleary? 2002. Read the whole article, not just what AOL gave you. Mike lays out that anything is possible. We knew anything was possible because the Shuttle merger was not DOH, remember? A lot of guys over here think DOH is the best, but I didn't run into many that said it was the only possibility. You guys have heard this over and over again until it is your reality. It's just not true. The MEC pushed DOH/LOS because they thought it was the best strategy going into arbitration, not because everyone thought it was the only possible way.

I disagree about the entitlement because we were a legacy. The airline has it roots in the Local Service carriers, so legacy in time, but I can assure you that people like jetz didn't consider us equals.

From where I sit the Nic looks like a massive win for the bottom 2/3s of the west list. We will just have to disagree because I will go to my grave feeling that way, no matter what happens. To many the Nic feels so out of whack that to them it is nearly criminal.

I've said that anti-nic doesn't make one DOH exclusively. You seem to aim that paragraph at me, but it wasn't my idea. A lot of times when I say things, I'm just trying to get people to understand what people are thinking, not necessarily whether I agree with it or not. Like when I say there is always an appeal it doesn't meant that I think appeal is ethical or not, it's just that if enough people decide to not go along with an outcome of something, they may "appeal" it. The American Revolution and the Civil War come to mind, with different outcomes for the one's "appealing".

What the Virgin pilot's statement says to me is how often someone's idea of fair changes with their circumstances. I think if we merged with Virgin he should stay a captain, but not be allowed to take many of the opportunities that I have away, or at least ahead of me.

Fire away................

You just got lucky that there are more clowns than pilots at the new usairways, otherwise you would have had a big raise and your worst affected pilot would have a delayed upgrade of 2 years time vs. stand alone.

 

[flyinawa]

I'm going to try and explain how most of the east guys I know think. I won't be successful and I'm sure my post will be shreaded, but you were respectful and I said I would answer.

Respond to, yes. Shred, no. Right or wrong, we each have our opinions and they may be the only thing we actually are "entitled" to.

You said you could have accepted straight DOH because your reps warned you that it was possible. I will take you at your word, but could all of the other AWA pilots have done that? Would any of them said "Hey, we have this veto in the TA, let's just vote no on a contract and keep what we have"? Could it be that DOH from Nic would have been easier to take for the younger west F/Os, not because it was the agreed upon process, but because they would see an aging east group that would turn the airline over to them? A pilots position on the list, his age, seniority within his group and his career experience all go into shaping what they think is fair. For many at the bottom of the US list that had taken pay cuts, lost their pensions and spent 15 years or so at the bottom, the prospect of a large number of younger pilots getting placed in front of them and taking what they had been waiting for was too much. A lot of west guys talk about the junior east stealing their jobs, but most I know don't want to steal west jobs, they want to finally advance on the east. They really think that the C&Rs will keep them from stealing west jobs.

I can't speak on behalf of what other pilots may have resolved to if the verdict would have been different, but as I said before we were told to expect damn near anything. We were told we may hate it, but that was the risk we took by going to binding arbitration and I think pretty much everybody accepted that. Even if Nic would have stapled the West to the bottom of the list, it's not like we could have decertified it by creating a new union and staffing it only with pilots who shared our beliefs. The West doesn't enjoy being in the majority.

As far as the loses suffered by the East pilots prior, I take no pleasure in them. As an industry, we are a chain that is as strong as the weakest link and the gutting of one company sets the rest of the group at the edge of a slippery slope. Before the merger was announced, I dreaded the idea of thousands of pilots having their lives decimated due to poor management that they had no control over. However, the company that wronged them is GONE. Also, asking me to flush my career so the East can reclaim their previous grandeur isn't an option. DOH is significant within ones own company. I don't think putting the 500+ East pilots on the top was a slap in the face to West pilots because of the wide body flying that didn't exist on the West. I don't see how a furloughed person who had nothing more than a seniority number could expect to be senior to an active pilot. But this DOH with C&Rs is a thinly veiled joke. You can't expect to get back a career with a company that doesn't exist anymore. And before you ask, I'd say the same thing if we merged with VA and I was junior to a bunch of guys who were hired last year.

You said that the furloughed pilots brought nothing to the merger and the expectation of placement above active pilots would be unprecedented. Both are untrue. In the Airwaves article that the latest AOL quotes Cleary in, they mention that in Hughes Airwest and Republic, furloughed Hughes pilots went ahead of active Republic pilots. I wonder why AOL chose to highlight MO/AL vs. that one? Furloughed east pilots did bring something to the merger. An east pilot never has to give up his number while on furlough. His place is saved and no active pilot can be replaced, except by a furloughed pilot, until they no longer want it. So they brought a place in line at an airline that was still operating. LOA 93, that has saved this company so much, cost some of the more senior furloughed their jobs because of 95 pay caps and the inability of reserves to call out of time anymore. It allowed the company to go into the merger very understaffed, and thus have them disadvantaged by Nic. There the Co neutral agrees with me.

I don't think this merger was fair to Captain Ferris. It's one the things I have always said that Nic got wrong.

Again, I stand by the idea that a furloughed pilot doesn't bring anything to a merger and thus belongs below the active pilots. While I've never been furloughed, I was within 30 and was expecting to be on the street this time last year. I'm sure it sucks worse than I was anticipating it would. What a furloughed pilot has is a "position on a list". Due to a merger, that list changed as active pilots were meshed together. As soon as the hiring starts again, positions at the bottom become available and that's the way it is. That's what a position on the furlough list buys a pilot; a junior position when it becomes available. Who sacrificed what isn't something that can be given a numeric value and thus I don't see it as something that can be quantified. What IS significant is what USAir and AWA were at the time of the merger. As far as Ferris is concerned, I don't think it would be reasonable (nor did he expect for that matter, he is a really great and level headed guy) that he would be spending his last couple of years flying 330s as a senior Captain.

I cannot understand why the west says that the east had the expectation of only DOH. Did you read the date on the article that AOL quoted Cleary? 2002. Read the whole article, not just what AOL gave you. Mike lays out that anything is possible. We knew anything was possible because the Shuttle merger was not DOH, remember? A lot of guys over here think DOH is the best, but I didn't run into many that said it was the only possibility. You guys have heard this over and over again until it is your reality. It's just not true. The MEC pushed DOH/LOS because they thought it was the best strategy going into arbitration, not because everyone thought it was the only possible way.

I disagree about the entitlement because we were a legacy. The airline has it roots in the Local Service carriers, so legacy in time, but I can assure you that people like jetz didn't consider us equals.

Why do we think the East expected DOH? As I understand it, that was the only proposal the East Negotiators offered, a meltdown occurred when the list more closely resembled the West's "relative" proposal, and then USAPA added it as one of their founding tenets. The so called, "gold standard" in mergers. Perhaps the West's opening offer should have been to staple the East. That sort of a hard opening position would have made the more centrist Nic appear more like the center field that it actually is.

As far as the entitlement goes, I suppose every pilot wants to believe they are somehow more elite than their peers. Those local service carriers evolved into a very high paying, international carrier. Pre-Nic, I was standing next to an East pilot who told a Northwest pilot that the the list would, "definitely with date-of-hire and America West pilots should feel lucky to get that". Needless to say, he and I exchanged words.

From where I sit the Nic looks like a massive win for the bottom 2/3s of the west list. We will just have to disagree because I will go to my grave feeling that way, no matter what happens. To many the Nic feels so out of whack that to them it is nearly criminal.

I've said that anti-nic doesn't make one DOH exclusively. You seem to aim that paragraph at me, but it wasn't my idea. A lot of times when I say things, I'm just trying to get people to understand what people are thinking, not necessarily whether I agree with it or not. Like when I say there is always an appeal it doesn't meant that I think appeal is ethical or not, it's just that if enough people decide to not go along with an outcome of something, they may "appeal" it. The American Revolution and the Civil War come to mind, with different outcomes for the one's "appealing".

I respect the view from where you sit. Particular since I would say the same about DOH. Therefore, the only way to sort it out is to make our respective cases to a Neutral and let them decide. Unfortunately, we did that and look where we are. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I can say for a fact is isn't giving the "angry" side the ability to rewrite the outcome in a means that THEY see as fair. The trouble is, legally there isn't a West and an East any more. When we went to USAPA, the ability to assemble East and West reps in the same place and discuss options went out the window. AOL isn't a bargaining agent. Furthermore, even if a method to "retry the nic" was created, what's to keep the East from refusing to accept THAT outcome? You said it yourself, "there is always an appeal". So when does it end?

What the Virgin pilot's statement says to me is how often someone's idea of fair changes with their circumstances. I think if we merged with Virgin he should stay a captain, but not be allowed to take many of the opportunities that I have away, or at least ahead of me.

As I said earlier, if we merged he should get exactly what his relative position could hold. As far as protecting "opportunities" you refer to, so much of them are unquantifiable. Nic means open season for East pilots who want to come to PHX. While I never want to commute, I accept that as condition of my NEW seniority, I may not be able to hold PHX Captain for a much longer time. I respect the idea that the only way to share yours (bases, aircraft, etc.) is to share mine. That's how mergers work.

Fire away................

Here, let's trade my keyboard for your flak jacket again. Ready, aim, .....

Respectfully, flyinawa

 

[crazystnic]

You just got lucky that there are more clowns than pilots at the new usairways, otherwise you would have had a big raise and your worst affected pilot would have a delayed upgrade of 2 years time vs. stand alone.

************************

2 years is not accurate.. and when one has been waiting a long time... for an upgrade any delay is not acceptable.

 

[biggie smalls]

Well boys it's a done , all the190's are getting sent to PHX, ramp pesonel is gearing up with new painted lines for the 190 .The east coast boys and girls, are coming in your house, flying your routes and drink your beer.

 

[psw737]

Well boys it's a done , all the190's are getting sent to PHX, ramp pesonel is gearing up with new painted lines for the 190 .The east coast boys and girls, are coming in your house, flying your routes and drink your beer.

Heard the lines were painted for Republic. The 170/175 is coming to PHX this fall. More outsourcing.

 

[Pi brat]

Respond to, yes. Shred, no. Right or wrong, we each have our opinions and they may be the only thing we actually are "entitled" to.



I can't speak on behalf of what other pilots may have resolved to if the verdict would have been different, but as I said before we were told to expect damn near anything. We were told we may hate it, but that was the risk we took by going to binding arbitration and I think pretty much everybody accepted that. Even if Nic would have stapled the West to the bottom of the list, it's not like we could have decertified it by creating a new union and staffing it only with pilots who shared our beliefs. The West doesn't enjoy being in the majority.

As far as the loses suffered by the East pilots prior, I take no pleasure in them. As an industry, we are a chain that is as strong as the weakest link and the gutting of one company sets the rest of the group at the edge of a slippery slope. Before the merger was announced, I dreaded the idea of thousands of pilots having their lives decimated due to poor management that they had no control over. However, the company that wronged them is GONE. Also, asking me to flush my career so the East can reclaim their previous grandeur isn't an option. DOH is significant within ones own company. I don't think putting the 500+ East pilots on the top was a slap in the face to West pilots because of the wide body flying that didn't exist on the West. I don't see how a furloughed person who had nothing more than a seniority number could expect to be senior to an active pilot. But this DOH with C&Rs is a thinly veiled joke. You can't expect to get back a career with a company that doesn't exist anymore. And before you ask, I'd say the same thing if we merged with VA and I was junior to a bunch of guys who were hired last year.




Again, I stand by the idea that a furloughed pilot doesn't bring anything to a merger and thus belongs below the active pilots. While I've never been furloughed, I was within 30 and was expecting to be on the street this time last year. I'm sure it sucks worse than I was anticipating it would. What a furloughed pilot has is a "position on a list". Due to a merger, that list changed as active pilots were meshed together. As soon as the hiring starts again, positions at the bottom become available and that's the way it is. That's what a position on the furlough list buys a pilot; a junior position when it becomes available. Who sacrificed what isn't something that can be given a numeric value and thus I don't see it as something that can be quantified. What IS significant is what USAir and AWA were at the time of the merger. As far as Ferris is concerned, I don't think it would be reasonable (nor did he expect for that matter, he is a really great and level headed guy) that he would be spending his last couple of years flying 330s as a senior Captain.



Why do we think the East expected DOH? As I understand it, that was the only proposal the East Negotiators offered, a meltdown occurred when the list more closely resembled the West's "relative" proposal, and then USAPA added it as one of their founding tenets. The so called, "gold standard" in mergers. Perhaps the West's opening offer should have been to staple the East. That sort of a hard opening position would have made the more centrist Nic appear more like the center field that it actually is.

As far as the entitlement goes, I suppose every pilot wants to believe they are somehow more elite than their peers. Those local service carriers evolved into a very high paying, international carrier. Pre-Nic, I was standing next to an East pilot who told a Northwest pilot that the the list would, "definitely with date-of-hire and America West pilots should feel lucky to get that". Needless to say, he and I exchanged words.



I respect the view from where you sit. Particular since I would say the same about DOH. Therefore, the only way to sort it out is to make our respective cases to a Neutral and let them decide. Unfortunately, we did that and look where we are. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I can say for a fact is isn't giving the "angry" side the ability to rewrite the outcome in a means that THEY see as fair. The trouble is, legally there isn't a West and an East any more. When we went to USAPA, the ability to assemble East and West reps in the same place and discuss options went out the window. AOL isn't a bargaining agent. Furthermore, even if a method to "retry the nic" was created, what's to keep the East from refusing to accept THAT outcome? You said it yourself, "there is always an appeal". So when does it end?



As I said earlier, if we merged he should get exactly what his relative position could hold. As far as protecting "opportunities" you refer to, so much of them are unquantifiable. Nic means open season for East pilots who want to come to PHX. While I never want to commute, I accept that as condition of my NEW seniority, I may not be able to hold PHX Captain for a much longer time. I respect the idea that the only way to share yours (bases, aircraft, etc.) is to share mine. That's how mergers work.



Here, let's trade my keyboard for your flak jacket again. Ready, aim, .....

Respectfully, flyinawa

One of the hard things about communicating on a board is that it's open to everyone and sometimes the message is just to the one you answered and sometimes to everyone. To be clear I didn't think you would shred, or fire, that was for some of your buddies, and true to form fodase was there with a clown bomb!

I've been told by a couple of your pilots that they thought they would have to use the veto power of the joint ratification. Plus, with some of the aggressive attitudes on here I have no doubt had it gone that far the other way, some would have done whatever they could. I don't think our groups are that different in makeup of personalities, just experiences. You are correct that you would have been limited because you were in the minority, and minorities have had to figure on that since the beginning of time.

I didn't get the 500 on top because there were not 500 widebody captains. I thought it was an odd way to protect the widebodies, and the reason I see it hurting your top guys is that he didn't put a fence around PHX. On the first joint let's say they had 20 A320 C/O vacancies. All 20 of them could have go to east guys senior to your #1 and he would have had a huge drop.

I appreciate your sympathy for our careers but you declaration that the company that did it is gone is wrong. Most of it is still here, rolled into another one, to form a new one. Most of the old one is intact and never went away, never even stopped for a day. The widebodies, the CLT/DCA/PHL operations are said to be the strongest. The Trans-Atlantic. It's still here and our furloughed guys were in line for it, you weren't. I firmly do not believe they should be able to take a west captains job, but going forward I do not believe that Nic got the distribution of jobs correctly.

Have you ever stopped to think that you believe the story you have been fed. The east may not have presented anything but DOH to the west, but I KNOW they looked at many other things. These groups were so far apart that they felt that it would go to arbitration(didn't we all?), and that the best course was a DOH stance. Not that we couldn't live with anything else,or that something else might come out of it, but it was the best starting point. With Nic, they were wrong. What was the best west offer? Something like 2400 east on the bottom. With that gap, wasn't it reasonable to think there was no way they could agree? Then it was up to Nic to be fair, and 9 out of 10 east think he missed the mark. Here's what they west can't seem to grasp-most of us don't think he missed the mark because it wasn't DOH, but because it was so far towards the west. The long term furlough guys getting NO credit was the biggest thing for me.

I disagree with you about the furloughees. I think if you had been in our shoes, you would too. How about that Hughes/Republic?
Some of these guys had around 17 years of service and were only furloughed because of LOA 93. Did you look at the staffing from the Nic award? If we had the same as west they wouldn't have been furloughed. If we had been properly staffed even with LOA 93, they wouldn't have been furloughed. Also, Nic cleaned up the list before he put them together in '07, but used the then working bottom US pilot's status from '05.

Why shouldn't Ferris spend his last few years as an A330 C/O? He was at the top over there and we now have more widebodies than US brought. I think all groups should share the growth, and the contraction going forward. Nic would have the east suffer ALL the contraction, and going forward the junior west captains and F/Os have a huge increase in relative positions vs stnd alone AWA. This delay has let us see how Nic's crystal ball was. Not too good, IMHO. Our bottom 737 capt. has all but about 17% of west pilots ahead of him on the Nic,and contrary to what prechilli says, he didn't get that by "growth". We are 70+ hulls less now than 5/2005.

If an east pilot really thought that DOH was the only possibility in this merger, and he/she thought that was all AWA deserved, then he/she was an idiot. You might not believe it, but to many over here Nic bad doesn't =only DOH good. It's just that the ones that decided to do something about the Nic went down that road. The vote for USAPA didn't have a box for USAPA, but not DOH, or USAPA, but let's try again to find something fair. It was yes/no, and the majority said yes, as they thought it was a better option than ALPA. We will see if they were right and that answer will come from a court, not us. Then we will have to try and find a way to heal and live with it.

I think that covers it all. Take care.

Take care.

 

[BLT]

USAPA. Congratulations on your third anniversary! You have accomplished............nothing.

 

[Pi brat]

You just got lucky that there are more clowns than pilots at the new usairways, otherwise you would have had a big raise and your worst affected pilot would have a delayed upgrade of 2 years time vs. stand alone.

fodase,

Can you not see how silly and irrelevant the clown stuff makes you? Once, okay, but when it's over and over again one comes to the conclusion that you can't come up with anything else.

If it's just therapy for you, then okay..............

 

[Pi brat]

Well boys it's a done , all the190's are getting sent to PHX, ramp pesonel is gearing up with new painted lines for the 190 .The east coast boys and girls, are coming in your house, flying your routes and drink your beer.

.

Be careful for what you wish for. With the west at min fleet and block hours, where will the replaced flying go?

 

[biggie smalls]

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Be careful for what you wish for. With the west at min fleet and block hours, where will the replaced flying go?

Republic, when they buy you guys..........................................

 

[cleardirect]

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2 years is not accurate.. and when one has been waiting a long time... for an upgrade any delay is not acceptable.

Are you saying that your expert lied? The two year figure comes from your own "expert" Ric Salamat. Go back and look at that pretty little red and blue waterfall report produced by the EAST.

It shows that the longest any east pilot would wait for upgrade is two years.

So if 2 years is unacceptable under Nicolau. What would you call a self imposed 4 years delay because of east pilots and usapa?

I would call it just plain stupid.

 

[flyinawa]

I think that covers it all. Take care.

Take care.

Pi, I will get a reply out. I honestly appreciate the discussion of perspectives without the throwing insult laden fire-bombs. I have a bunch of things I need to get done 1st.

Be careful for what you wish for. With the west at min fleet and block hours, where will the replaced flying go?

Republic, when they buy you guys..........................................

Pi, I think biggie is a little fuzzy on exactly who "you guys" are. LOL.

 

[biggie smalls]

Pi, I will get a reply out. I honestly appreciate the discussion of perspectives without the throwing insult laden fire-bombs. I have a bunch of things I need to get done 1st.





Pi, I think biggie is a little fuzzy on exactly who "you guys" are. LOL.

Sorry boys, too much cavasia this morning................