US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Yes.....the first two lines of the article read:

"Southwest Airlines , AirTran Airways and their pilot unions said Thursday they've got an agreement on how they will negotiate the merging of the pilot seniority lists.

Listen carefully here. They didn't say they've agreed on how they would integrate the seniority lists. They agreed on how they would go about talking about integrating the seniority lists."

??? No. They agreed to this process and timeline:

- 30-day seniority list vetting.

- 90 days of direct negotiations beginning within 30-45 days from today

- If needed, mediation that concludes no later than Sept. 30, 2011

- If needed, arbitration proceeding with award targeted for Dec. 31, 2011



Discussion, mediation, arbitration. Sound familiar?

BINDING MEANS BINDING.

Enjoy LOA93

 

[Pi brat]

I happen to agree. I also happen to think that while maintaining your integrity is important above all, there comes a time when standing up to a bully (ie: abusive person) becomes justified and even necessary. First you try rational discussion and reasoning. When that fails you move on to other tools. If the person is completely unreachable and immature, then the last resort is speaking to them in the only language that they understand. That is where Jim and I and others are at this point, especially with Nos.

I see you are still taking your swipes though. Will rational discussion work with you, or do we have to speak your language as well? Jim and I certainly know those values you speak of. Your condescending tone was obvious.

Here's another value you probably know, but do not seem to practice here. People should police their own troublemakers if they want to maintain their own respect. Turning a blind eye or making excuses for them only enables the behavior further. Eventually others will step in and do the job you should have been doing all along.

As for scabs, I agree that you have few. I can not control what happened before my time. I can say there has never been a scab at UA since my employment began. There are very few scabs left at UA that were a result of the '85 strike. Don't know much about the CO scabs except that most of them are retired. Scabs are a disgusting and unfortunate byproduct of many (not all) strikes. Remind me when again the number of scabs that crossed the line at USAir's last pilot strike, and what was the date of that strike when US pilots stood up to managements unfair demands?



So what I hear you saying is that you stick to your values and morals... to a point. But then you must know when to take a stand. Kinda like Jim and I perhaps?

Example: his latest lies and misinformation about UA's progress in contract negotiations. How many sections has USAPA closed and in what amount of time? Now same question for UA. The evidence very easily proves him wrong, yet he repeats his lies day in and days out, beating his drum, spewing his nonsense. He thinks he might sway someone's opinion, then he turns around and calls other people shills and secret ALPA operatives trying to sway opinion. It's all very bizarre and twisted.

Another example: lies about the UA MEC recall attempt that did not have the votes to move forward, and never will. Yet again he thinks repeating those lies over and over will make them true when the simple evidence shows the contrary.

Of course we all know about the other lies he's been spewing in his 650 posts since he showed up here last November. Sure has a lot of nonsense to say in such a short amount of time. So here we are dishing it right back because no one else says a word about it. Again, maybe you should consider speaking up yourself. Or at least the very least (in your own words) "you need to understand that" and stop acting like you don't know why we respond to him the way we do.

That has to be one of the most b.s. laden post I have ever seen. An excuse for every action.

So I should police my own? Ok, let's go back and take score. I have had posts where I called on east guy on something. How about you and Jim. Where are the outcries about us being called scabs? Clowns? Dumb as rocks? Thieves? Flying airplanes into the ground? And then you didn't even police yourself or Jim when you called me a child molester. But I'm supposed to reining Sum/Nos in. Integrity. You picked a side of this fight due to old slights and anti-DOH bias. You defend the side you picked at all costs.

You know the funniest part of your diatribe? This one:

"I also happen to think that while maintaining your integrity is important above all, there comes a time when standing up to a bully (ie: abusive person) becomes justified and even necessary. First you try rational discussion and reasoning. When that fails you move on to other tools."

US pilots feel that they were bullied by ALPA for years. That their dues didn't deserve the same action and interest that a UA or a DL did. That their policies stacked the deck against them. They finally rose up to the bully and MOVED ON TO OTHER TOOLS.

It's lame jetz. There is no reason for throwing out the child molester thing, it was low and inexcusable.

You are full of bovine excrement.

 

[nevergiveup]

??? No. They agreed to this process and timeline:

- 30-day seniority list vetting.

- 90 days of direct negotiations beginning within 30-45 days from today

- If needed, mediation that concludes no later than Sept. 30, 2011

- If needed, arbitration proceeding with award targeted for Dec. 31, 2011



Discussion, mediation, arbitration. Sound familiar?

BINDING MEANS BINDING.

Enjoy LOA93

The west is still upset over LOA 93! They mention it all the time.

 

[luvthe9]

OK, reality check time, No NIC ever for the west, done. How are all those upgrades going for you we seem to have quite a few, how bout you guys. How are those property values doing in PHX, well nevermind on that one. And my favorite high oils prices, let me guess where all those cutbacks might occur, how bout the money losing west operation. you will be sold off soon anyway, so not to much to worry about.

 

[Humty72]

OK, reality check time, No NIC ever for the west, done. How are all those upgrades going for you we seem to have quite a few, how bout you guys. How are those property values doing in PHX, well nevermind on that one. And my favorite high oils prices, let me guess where all those cutbacks might occur, how bout the money losing west operation. you will be sold off soon anyway, so not to much to worry about.

That wasn't a very constructive post. What was the point of it all?

 

[Zone5]

Southwest and AAI agree to seniority integration process: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/04/southwest-airtran-pilot-unions.html

We will NEVER give up what is rightfully ours as determined by the arbitration process. Bank on it.

Oh, and enjoy LOA93.

Once again, it matters not what arbitration "determined". Had ALPA stayed on the property and produced a proposed JCBA, it would then have been sent out to East and West for SEPARATE ratification (assuming ANY deal could have been reached with the company). With the "arbitrated" NIC in it, it would never have been ratified by the EAST. The only way to have ever reached a "ratified" ALPA JCBA would have been to have mutually modified the "arbitrated" Section-22 and or talked the company in to making SIGNIFICANT monetary improvements across the board. The likelihood of either of those happening remains extremely remote, to this day. We would still be where we are today, we would just have gotten here in a different manner and the company would be just as pleased to let us keep fighting each other, while they pocket the money they save.

Personally, I have no big problem with LOA-93, last I checked, my quality of life, pay and seniority are better on LOA-93 and separate ops, than they would be with the NIC and Kirby combined. I would rather not be the second lowest paid 75 pilot in the industry (West pilots have always had the dubious distinction of worst paid) but such is life.

seajay

 

[PullUp]

No DOH. The theft of our seniority has been averted.

Yes. We will never forget what you've done to us. We shrank by 20 airframes while hundreds of your furloughs were recalled, furloughs who had no prospects of ever returning to US Airways absent the merger.

Now, however, you're the ones on LOA93. All the pain for the West has been had, but for the East, think about it: $110 oil, the Eurozone in trouble . . . where's Doug going to cut in '11? Take a guess.

Cut? With record loads and fares on the increase? Kirby stating that fare increases are easier and sticking (paraphrasing)?
Au contraire, if Doug et al could find more money for 757s, 330's, and e195's, the airline would be growing. The economy is just starting the recovery. Oil is stabilizing and it seems passengers will purchase tickets no matter the cost. To cut anything now is not an intelligent move.
However, the statement above that the company needs to lose money while in contract negotiations is 100% accurate.
Cheers.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Politics, Censorship, Power Struggles and USAPA

See Story

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPAWATCH.com Update: April 18, 2011

Since USAPA hasn’t accomplished anything since its inception, it now believes that we are better off standing in the unemployment line than flying for a viable airline.

See Story

 

[767jetz]

That has to be one of the most b.s. laden post I have ever seen. An excuse for every action.

Blah, blah, blah.

Not one worthwhile response in that whole post. Let's try not to forget that YOU are the one scolding Jim and I about how we treat Nos, shall we?

I always taught my kids that emulating someone else's behavior was no excuse, the "well he/she did it! was never an appropriate excuse. I guess you and Jim were never taught that, as you are carrying it on.

But Heaven forbid I respond and use your own words/rules/interpretations against you to make my point. Then you show your real colors. If you wouldn't have opened your trap in Nos's defense by criticizing the way I respond to him I would have never needed to respond to you in the first place. Same old M.O. Drop a turd and then complain when someone tells you it stinks.

Not a word about USAir's last strike. Not a word about your condescending tone and stupid lecture on what we teach our kids. Not a word about the specific lies and double talk I pointed out from Nos.

You know, it's become just as worthless trying to converse with you as with Nos. Have a Happy Easter. Really.

 

[767jetz]

Mike Cleary Will Be Recalled

 

[GuntherA320]

No DOH. The theft of our seniority has been averted.

Yes. We will never forget what you've done to us. We shrank by 20 airframes while hundreds of your furloughs were recalled, furloughs who had no prospects of ever returning to US Airways absent the merger.

Now, however, you're the ones on LOA93. All the pain for the West has been had, but for the East, think about it: $110 oil, the Eurozone in trouble . . . where's Doug going to cut in '11? Take a guess.

Yes, yes.....we've heard it all before.....you predict gloom and doom for the east.....didn't happen on the last oil spike....i'm seriously doubting it will happen on this one.....but if Doug needs to make cuts due to your doom and gloom.....I can guarantee you that USAPA will make sure the east and west share in the pain equally. You seem to think that the East is WAY above block hour minimums......newsflash....we are BARELY above block hour mins. The west is flying 24% of formerly east flying. The East is subsidizing the West.

The 190's do not count in the block hour minimums. So lets say that Doug decides to sell the 190's......That will be 15 west pilots flying on the east out the door along with the NEW HIRE F/O's.....that's 90 f/o's......the 75 captains will be absorbed back into the ranks due to attrition over the next year....yes....we will have at a minimum of 75 pilots go out early over the next 9 months to a year. But again....why would the company get rid of the most fuel efficient, lowest paid aircraft in the system. You have to ask yourself if that makes sense.

What would be more likely to happen would be Doug coming to USAPA asking for relief from fleet minimums and block hour commitments. I'm sure you can agree that that pain would be shared equally. Then you have to ask yourself......which side has most of the retirements coming? Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[flyinawa]

I have taught my kids to honor their commitments and when we have talked about what is going on around here I tell them that I have real heartburn about that part of it. It was one of the reasons that I voted for ALPA, not that I had any use for them, but we would have a better leg to stand on by going that route.

I have also taught them that sometimes the outcome of something is so bad that people can't accept it and if you are on the winning end of it you need to understand that. Right or wrong, that's how the majority of guys felt over here, that the Nic was outside the lines.

I am teaching my daughter to honor her commitments as well (even though she hasn't yet asked me what "integrity" means, ZING!!). Even though the NIC wasn't the West's proposal for integration, let's try to put the shoe on the other foot. If NIC had said, "straight DOH", I could have swallowed the pill because the West ALPA reps had advised the membership that ANY outcome was on the table. The furloughed guys being figured into the equation, however, was never a reasonable possibility because they brought NOTHING to the merger and to include them would have been unprecedented. With that said, I come from a Union family and understand what Binding Arbitration means. Ask Ferris E. if he thinks he was treated fairly by Nic. Currently number one of the West list and he'll be behind how many East pilots? Should HE try to wiggle out of the Nic so he's senior on a wide body?

I think that is the problem with much of the philosophy that exists on the East; "we are entitled to what we want because we are legacy pilots and you never were". The hell with reality. The truth is, Nic presented an outcome that was unreasonable based purely on the expectations of the EAST pilots. The rest of the industry doesn't agree, nor will the courts. It's somewhat laughable the USAPA claims DOH is an unamendable cornerstone of its foundation, even though if flies in the face of the McCaskill-Bond Act that will govern any NEW mergers.

I can't accept your declaration of the, "outcome of something is so bad that people can't accept it and if you are on the winning end of it you need to understand that". First, the West didn't "win". The outcome was more aligned with the West proposal, but had you ever considered that was because the West had a more reasonable proposal? Second, the Nic is only outside the unreasonable expectations of the East.

If your child was wrongly convicted of a crime, would you try any appeal that might work, or just say "well, that's how the system works"? I've had lots of disagreements with my east friends over the handling of this, but I have accepted that this is the road we are going down. I suggest you accept it and let it play out.

Wait, your comparing the implementation of the Nic to my child being wrongfully convicted of a crime? That is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd hardly compare accepting binding arbitration to a wrongful conviction. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's criminal.

With the last line you show what your moral compass is made of.

And what of the moral compass of many of the East? ALPA provided a process for integrating lists. The provided a procedure using neutral parties with nothing to gain from any outcome that was deemed acceptable to all parties right up until the point the Nic was released and then suddenly ALPA was criminalized. They conspired to steal East pilot's career expectations and transfer them to a bunch of inexperienced, glorified Mesa pilots, right? Please. I read this sort of thing all the time on other forums. Then the poor East pilots founded USAPA to stop that from happening. I wasn't an ALPA cheerleader either, but you don't have to have a degree in Labor Relations to see why the West pilots voted against USAPA. It eliminated the 2 party system and the Neutrals and now can you honestly tell me they will provide an unbias integration plan? Here it is:

The USAPA method includes what was essentially East ALPA's opening offer, plus some very weak conditions and restrictions that will "fairly protect the West".

East ALPA's OPENING offer. No attempt at any sort of compromise. And you don't honestly think think the C&R's provide great protections for the West? Then let me propose this. Straight ratio, Captains to Captains, FO and FOs, with those same "Iron Clad" C&Rs to protect the East pilots. Not so generous now, is it?

Quick story: One of my furloughed AWA friends at Virgin America told me about flying with a Captain who was a former East pilot. The Eastie brought up the merger and said how ridiculous the Nic award was. My Westie friend asked, "if Virgin merged with the NEW USAir today, should you remain a captain or should you get DOH at the new company". The Captain responded with, "well, that's different. I'm senior at Virgin and should be a senior Captain if we merged". WOW...doesn't that say a lot about perspective?

Final thought: Pi, you and I may not agree on much, but I respect the fact you are willing to at least try to look at much of what's happening from a step back. No one's view of what's going on will ever be the same regardless of what angle we observe the issues but being able to have a "reasonable" discussion about it says a lot about a person.

 

[sumadarson]

Not one worthwhile response in that whole post. Let's try not to forget that YOU are the one scolding Jim and I about how we treat Nos, shall we?


But Heaven forbid I respond and use your own words/rules/interpretations against you to make my point. Then you show your real colors. If you wouldn't have opened your trap in Nos's defense by criticizing the way I respond to him I would have never needed to respond to you in the first place. Same old M.O. Drop a turd and then complain when someone tells you it stinks.

Not a word about USAir's last strike. Not a word about your condescending tone and stupid lecture on what we teach our kids. Not a word about the specific lies and double talk I pointed out from Nos.

You know, it's become just as worthless trying to converse with you as with Nos. Have a Happy Easter. Really.

Truth hurts you, plain and simple.

You are abusing rules 4, 5, 10 and 11 of your alpa strategy playbook.

jetz playbook

 

[crazystnic]

Politics, Censorship, Power Struggles and USAPA

See Story

***************************

Yeah and 767 CAPT ED Campbell is number 39 on the list.... I'm sure he has been a Captain for a long long time....
I'd love to compare earnings....

I hope the FO's who fly with him let him know what they thing of his recall...

Enough said.