US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

An internal union was better in your opinion. You go on to give some examples.

Have you asked what the secretaries at usapa make compared to 190 F/O's?

I have heard other reasons. Don't want to pay money to a national union. An internal union can do it cheaper. Conflict of interest.

Has your dues rate gone down after 3 years or are we still paying the same as ALPA plus assesments? usapa is a member of CAPA. Is usapa's interest always the same as SWA or UPS?

Are we now locked into usapa for the duration? If we go back to ALPA or teamsters it is a national union with conflicts of interest. It will be completely hypocritical to go back to a national union after trying to convince the west it was not about seniority. But conflict of interest and money.

This is one of the problems as the west sees it. East pilots voted completely emotionally and did not think usapa all the way through. You guys had the information but let your anger and history cloud your judgment. So here we are 3 years later no contract no progress and a union created by the east to benefit the east accomplishing nothing. Are you prepared to retire on LOA 93? That is the reality of our situation.

Here we go again, LOA 93, LOA 93...... The constant mantra of west despair. Do you hear us crying about it? No. Here is the reality. Big attrition starting. Here comes a raise with the 76 or 330. The 190 F/O s? Now bidding off to the next group. Many have military kicking in, and PBGC. Where is the hardship? There isn't any. In fact a lot of us are finished or finishing the college years for the kids. You are locked into PHX and the highest rate is the A 320. Where is your 75 pay? You didn't get it. You live in an area that has been devastated in housing prices. This is the reality. LOA 93 bugs you more than us. This is why you don't see anybody caving. We don't have to. A contract? I really don't see one coming for years. This pilot group is so fractured that it is not going to happen unless Parker has a reason to. He has the best situaton he ever could ask for. We are all wrapped into this mess together, with no way out that I see other than attrition and upgrades. Get comfortable with where you are, because that is where you stay. Have a good weekend.

 

[cleardirect]

Here we go again, LOA 93, LOA 93...... The constant mantra of west despair. Do you hear us crying about it? No. Here is the reality. Big attrition starting. Here comes a raise with the 76 or 330. The 190 F/O s? Now bidding off to the next group. Many have military kicking in, and PBGC. Where is the hardship? There isn't any. In fact a lot of us are finished or finishing the college years for the kids. You are locked into PHX and the highest rate is the A 320. Where is your 75 pay? You didn't get it. You live in an area that has been devastated in housing prices. This is the reality. LOA 93 bugs you more than us. This is why you don't see anybody caving. We don't have to. A contract? I really don't see one coming for years. This pilot group is so fractured that it is not going to happen unless Parker has a reason to. He has the best situaton he ever could ask for. We are all wrapped into this mess together, with no way out that I see other than attrition and upgrades. Get comfortable with where you are, because that is where you stay. Have a good weekend.

The west is very comfortable where we are. Our contract is better than anything usapa can bring. They are giving away the good stuff in our contract.

Yes LOA 93. I asked the question was he ready to retire on LOA 93. You can scream attrition all day long. But the guy that has 2-3-5 years left what does that gain him? He will retire on LOA 93. No movement. The only thing attrition gains is for the junior guys. So you F/O's hang around, throw the senior guys under the bus so you can take it from them.

Yes Parker does have a great situation. If you east guys would follow the arbitration we could all get back to what we should be doing. Getting it from Parker. Why do you think that merger policies are final and binding arbitrations instead of court cases? It settles the argument saves everyone time and money.

So yes enjoy LOA 93. Retire on that contract. I don't care. My contract is livable. Vacation, scheduling, STD,LTD insurance. the only thing the west is going to get from this next contract is reduced benefits and a couple bucks an hours more.

 

[Black Swan]

The west is very comfortable where we are. Our contract is better than anything usapa can bring. They are giving away the good stuff in our contract.

Yes LOA 93. I asked the question was he ready to retire on LOA 93. You can scream attrition all day long. But the guy that has 2-3-5 years left what does that gain him? He will retire on LOA 93. No movement. The only thing attrition gains is for the junior guys. So you F/O's hang around, throw the senior guys under the bus so you can take it from them.

Yes Parker does have a great situation. If you east guys would follow the arbitration we could all get back to what we should be doing. Getting it from Parker. Why do you think that merger policies are final and binding arbitrations instead of court cases? It settles the argument saves everyone time and money.

So yes enjoy LOA 93. Retire on that contract. I don't care. My contract is livable. Vacation, scheduling, STD,LTD insurance. the only thing the west is going to get from this next contract is reduced benefits and a couple bucks an hours more.

 

[luvthe9]

Yes Parker does have a great situation. If you east guys would follow the arbitration we could all get back to what we should be doing. Getting it from Parker. Why do you think that merger policies are final and binding arbitrations instead of court cases? It settles the argument saves everyone time and money.

So yes enjoy LOA 93. Retire on that contract. I don't care. My contract is livable. Vacation, scheduling, STD,LTD insurance. the only thing the west is going to get from this next contract is reduced benefits and a couple bucks an hours more.

If you guys out west had accepted DOH we could have had a better deal all around, alot of of your angry F/Os could have upgraded by now, senoir guys might be on wide bodies. But you continue to follow the Rev Jim Jones (aka Ferguson) and his promise of the NIC which has long faded, all that is left is all the money you owe to the attornies and not one thing to show for it and now the identity theft deal. Listening to some westies the other night in CLT (happy hour) they seem to be fed up with AOL. It's your money keep those donations coming in!!!! (PS LOA 93 is livable also) Good luck kids.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Why do you think that merger policies are final and binding arbitrations instead of court cases? It settles the argument saves everyone time and money.

Why do unions that have had much better success than pilots(basically every other unionized workforce) provide seniority integration mandated in their by-laws? Maybe the understand the nature of unions and realize that outsourcing a key component of it and setting the two sides in competition with each other is not unionist.

 

[crazystnic]

Here we go again, LOA 93, LOA 93...... The constant mantra of west despair. Do you hear us crying about it? No. Here is the reality. Big attrition starting. Here comes a raise with the 76 or 330. The 190 F/O s? Now bidding off to the next group. Many have military kicking in, and PBGC. Where is the hardship? There isn't any. In fact a lot of us are finished or finishing the college years for the kids. You are locked into PHX and the highest rate is the A 320. Where is your 75 pay? You didn't get it. You live in an area that has been devastated in housing prices. This is the reality. LOA 93 bugs you more than us. This is why you don't see anybody caving. We don't have to. A contract? I really don't see one coming for years. This pilot group is so fractured that it is not going to happen unless Parker has a reason to. He has the best situaton he ever could ask for. We are all wrapped into this mess together, with no way out that I see other than attrition and upgrades. Get comfortable with where you are, because that is where you stay. Have a good weekend.

*********************
Hey Swan, the funny thing about this board is the west Mantra is 99% about how we should cave and accept the NIC and stop living on LOA 93... You know they only reason they care... They want the NIC..... if not they have no reason to try and convince us to move off LOA 93 and get a contract and the NIC>
I don't see it happening... Doesn't matter. .. ALPA , Teamsters .. USAPA... no contract while Doug stalls.

 

[crazystnic]

Would you do it again? How would you Justify your decision?

Just curious.

**********************
I did and would vote for USAPA again in a heart beat.. bottom line, the senior guys have had it pretty good for a long time... The bottom of this list is what has taken it in the shorts for many years... So while I sympathize with those making 125 an hour... There are many F/O's who have been making 85 for many , many years.

 

[Black Swan]

I think banshee summed up what a senior guy is thinking. There is not enough time or cohesion to get a deal for someone with a few years left. Parker is not giving us a contract and the sides are too divided to effectively battle. Get your personal affairs in order as the reality is both sides have the best they will see for years to come. Have a great weekend.

 

[crazystnic]

Personally, I think you're premature. I honestly believe that a majority of the East would vote against taking DOH out of the constitution - enough to at least make it a close vote. Just take Nos as one example - spent half of his "career" furloughed and DOH it the lottery ticket to a captain seat for him - why wait on attrition for years when DOH will get the prize sooner. And he's not alone by any means.

I think even those on the fence will have to have it made clear that DOH is an unachievable goal before letting go of the fantasy. A new union promising unity over DOH would produce a close vote too, and if USAPA prevailed that shoots down another attempt for 2 years.

Of course, the other problem is the same problem that's existed since USAPA became CBA - if you can get a group of moderates from each side together and they do somehow reach an agreement on a combined seniority list, the East could ignore it by claiming that the West members didn't have the legal standing to negotiate anything for the West.

If the East pay grievance goes down in flames, as I expect it will, and negotiations continue to drag on and on, maybe in 6-12 months something like you suggest would have a better chance of producing change IMHO.

Jim

**************************

No Jim, standard East attrition is his ticket to the left seat...
without some 2005 New Hire AWA pilot jumping in front to take what he has been waiting for.

 

[crazystnic]

If you'd expend as much energy finding the proof to back up your assertions I'd have seen it a month or more ago. What's the matter anonymous user Nosum "Bubba", can't find any proof? Just admit that you're a pathological liar then...

Jim

**************************

You and your proof need to be stuck up... well you know.
broken record.

 

[Black Swan]

Why do unions that have had much better success than pilots(basically every other unionized workforce) provide seniority integration mandated in their by-laws? Maybe the understand the nature of unions and realize that outsourcing a key component of it and setting the two sides in competition with each other is not unionist.

Alpa set it up with their moving target of seniority. Now Parker has the big gift of a divided group. Every other work group pulled off a successful seniority integration. Ours is a debacle.

 

[BoeingBoy]

**************************

You and your proof need to be stuck up... well you know.
broken record.

Talk to Nosum then. As I've said, all it takes to stop this is either proof or a retraction and apology from him. Should be a simple thing for Nosum, who claims to always provide facts. All he has to do is lay out the facts supporting his assertions about me. So again, talk to him since he has the power to end this with his next post...

But I bet you won't say a word to him. You and your pals enjoy it when Nosum labels all West pilots as scabs, drunks, and drug runners. Like the seniority integration, you want the name calling to be a one-way street.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You posted an 'here's how I feel about this' concerning the C18 and C2. That's different than correcting a poster that still brings up the charges about the C18 or C3. You apparently haven't said "East poster so and so, you should stop making those accusations", etc, etc. That would be too much trouble for what - correcting an East poster. Not you, you just sit back and take the cowards way out - "Well, they all ignored me but I tried."

When I've corrected a West poster, I quote the pertinent part of his/her post and tell them how and why they're wrong.

You might as well take that veneer of seeking middle ground off - it's not fooling anyone. You'll jump all over a Westie for making what you consider to be a mistake, go on and on for pages, but won't do the same to your pals. Hypocrisy at it finest...

Jim

Jim, Jim, Jim..........if you weren't so irritating, you'd be funny. Let me remind you of your post. You said:

" I haven't noticed you jumping in with a "Why don't you wait for the evidence" or anything else." That "a" there, that would be singular. That "or anything else", pretty self-explanatory. I showed you the post where I did just that, and instead of admitting your oversight, ignorance, lie............whatever, you came up with "Oh well, that's not good enough!" Typical Messiah Jimbo. You taught your disciples well too, it's their standard practice when I get them in a similar situation. Integrity.

 

[Pi brat]

Talk to Nosum then. As I've said, all it takes to stop this is either proof or a retraction and apology from him. Should be a simple thing for Nosum, who claims to always provide facts. All he has to do is lay out the facts supporting his assertions about me. So again, talk to him since he has the power to end this with his next post...

But I bet you won't say a word to him. You and your pals enjoy it when Nosum labels all West pilots as scabs, drunks, and drug runners. Like the seniority integration, you want the name calling to be a one-way street.

Jim

This is so weak. Are you 63 or 3?

How's that bid analysis coming that you picked up for Aqua? If you don't have access to the bids or CATCREW, I'm sure AOL would be glad to get it for you!

 

[Pi brat]

Here we go again, LOA 93, LOA 93...... The constant mantra of west despair. Do you hear us crying about it? No. Here is the reality. Big attrition starting. Here comes a raise with the 76 or 330. The 190 F/O s? Now bidding off to the next group. Many have military kicking in, and PBGC. Where is the hardship? There isn't any. In fact a lot of us are finished or finishing the college years for the kids. You are locked into PHX and the highest rate is the A 320. Where is your 75 pay? You didn't get it. You live in an area that has been devastated in housing prices. This is the reality. LOA 93 bugs you more than us. This is why you don't see anybody caving. We don't have to. A contract? I really don't see one coming for years. This pilot group is so fractured that it is not going to happen unless Parker has a reason to. He has the best situaton he ever could ask for. We are all wrapped into this mess together, with no way out that I see other than attrition and upgrades. Get comfortable with where you are, because that is where you stay. Have a good weekend.

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