sumadarson
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- Nov 17, 2010
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I think they may be discussing the, soon to be, four year anniversary of the ill fated Nicolau May 2007 findings.
US Pilots Labor Discussion
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I think they may be discussing the, soon to be, four year anniversary of the ill fated Nicolau May 2007 findings.
WINNING!
L
luvn737s
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Aquagreen 73s wrote:
Not the way some here are portraying it. They have made this personal and their pride is going to be just as big an impediment to contractual gains as that of the east.
Cheeky, but you know the significant differences between ALPA national leaning on AWALPA on behalf of AAALPA, and a bipartisan group of moderate east and west pilots who can hammer out a C&BL s free from the shackles of DOH. To keep USAPA you would have to allow all of the USAPA radicals to vote on a constitutional amendment to strip out DOH. Think that'll happen?
Changing unions puts USAPA on the defensive to prove why clinging to DOH is in their best interests. Keeping USAPA just enables lazy west pilots to participate through Paypal rather than developing a physical, tangible union that moderate east pilots can rally behind. That takes far more effort than clicking a Donate button and donning a lanyard.
With all due respect, and without any intention to attract flame: Blah! Blah! Blah! You can spend 2 million or 2 billion on Addington and it still doesn't solve anything. It just takes you back to the point where USAPA passed their DOH list. Leonidas has not been forthright with it's supporters in this regard. An Addington win in DFR2 doesn't win anything. USAPA is just as free to hand out a DOH contract as it ever has been. I am sick of those folks who live on every word that comes from the court, while a generation of pilots is laboring under substandard wages because they are under the tyranny of a fake union.
I think Cleary thrives on apathyand ignorance. It makes his histrionics all the more theatrical. If he had a well-informed electorate they might ask him hard questions.
The ratification of a new union would be the repudiation of Cleary's tactics. I would not be surprised if he quit shortly after a new union was installed. Or he would blather on in a little read blog somewhere.
There is no fix for USAPA. All the Bondo and JBWeld in the world can't patch that hulk up, and I for one don't feel like spending 2% of my salary on a patched up hulk that has no history of performance anyhow.
Not the way some here are portraying it. They have made this personal and their pride is going to be just as big an impediment to contractual gains as that of the east.
Cheeky, but you know the significant differences between ALPA national leaning on AWALPA on behalf of AAALPA, and a bipartisan group of moderate east and west pilots who can hammer out a C&BL s free from the shackles of DOH. To keep USAPA you would have to allow all of the USAPA radicals to vote on a constitutional amendment to strip out DOH. Think that'll happen?
Changing unions puts USAPA on the defensive to prove why clinging to DOH is in their best interests. Keeping USAPA just enables lazy west pilots to participate through Paypal rather than developing a physical, tangible union that moderate east pilots can rally behind. That takes far more effort than clicking a Donate button and donning a lanyard.
With all due respect, and without any intention to attract flame: Blah! Blah! Blah! You can spend 2 million or 2 billion on Addington and it still doesn't solve anything. It just takes you back to the point where USAPA passed their DOH list. Leonidas has not been forthright with it's supporters in this regard. An Addington win in DFR2 doesn't win anything. USAPA is just as free to hand out a DOH contract as it ever has been. I am sick of those folks who live on every word that comes from the court, while a generation of pilots is laboring under substandard wages because they are under the tyranny of a fake union.
I think Cleary thrives on apathyand ignorance. It makes his histrionics all the more theatrical. If he had a well-informed electorate they might ask him hard questions.
The ratification of a new union would be the repudiation of Cleary's tactics. I would not be surprised if he quit shortly after a new union was installed. Or he would blather on in a little read blog somewhere.
No, I said removing Cleary is step 1 in re-defining labor relations at USAirways. Less confrontational, but far more productive. Less sizzle, more steak. But USAPA is just a litany of failed ideas and any one of the CLT reps would fill his vacuum and change nothing. A new union would shed the baggage of USAPA and make for more efficient negotiations with the company. If pilots on both sides knew that this was a union that was spending it's time money and effort at the negotiating table and backing the initiatives that mean something to pilots instead of playing Matlock in a courtroom every week or so, it would be voted in by a wide majority.
There is no fix for USAPA. All the Bondo and JBWeld in the world can't patch that hulk up, and I for one don't feel like spending 2% of my salary on a patched up hulk that has no history of performance anyhow.
BoeingBoy
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Personally, I think you're premature. I honestly believe that a majority of the East would vote against taking DOH out of the constitution - enough to at least make it a close vote. Just take Nos as one example - spent half of his "career" furloughed and DOH it the lottery ticket to a captain seat for him - why wait on attrition for years when DOH will get the prize sooner. And he's not alone by any means.
I think even those on the fence will have to have it made clear that DOH is an unachievable goal before letting go of the fantasy. A new union promising unity over DOH would produce a close vote too, and if USAPA prevailed that shoots down another attempt for 2 years.
Of course, the other problem is the same problem that's existed since USAPA became CBA - if you can get a group of moderates from each side together and they do somehow reach an agreement on a combined seniority list, the East could ignore it by claiming that the West members didn't have the legal standing to negotiate anything for the West.
If the East pay grievance goes down in flames, as I expect it will, and negotiations continue to drag on and on, maybe in 6-12 months something like you suggest would have a better chance of producing change IMHO.
Jim
I think even those on the fence will have to have it made clear that DOH is an unachievable goal before letting go of the fantasy. A new union promising unity over DOH would produce a close vote too, and if USAPA prevailed that shoots down another attempt for 2 years.
Of course, the other problem is the same problem that's existed since USAPA became CBA - if you can get a group of moderates from each side together and they do somehow reach an agreement on a combined seniority list, the East could ignore it by claiming that the West members didn't have the legal standing to negotiate anything for the West.
If the East pay grievance goes down in flames, as I expect it will, and negotiations continue to drag on and on, maybe in 6-12 months something like you suggest would have a better chance of producing change IMHO.
Jim
Mark my words Jim, these Clown cowards will vote to merge with the teamsters within 12 mos. That way they save face and get to point fingers ateveryone but themselves. The loa 93 loss will turn the heat up, and because clowns are cowards, they would rather merge with the teamsters than look in t h e mirror. BTW within 12 mos. U won't find an east clown that will admit voting for usapa. Cowards.
That's the point Jim, they are such cowards they would rather go teamsters than ever admit theywere wrong, they know the teamsters won't do #### but are willing to sacrifice all the senior guys (they deserve to be sold out btw). Allegheny/Mohawk , McKaskill/bond have proven that nic. Was 100% correct, these clowns are so embarrassed (I wouldbe to) by their choice ( u know, stealing Wests jobs) of usapa they would rather lose hundreds of thouSands than admit what failures they are.
Metroyet
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- Nov 1, 2008
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Would I do it again....well let's say I now think some change is needed. Change in leadership, maybe union entity, etc. None of us has a crystal ball, and we make decisions based on the facts at the time. (otherwise we all would have waited for a job at Southwest).
I felt an internal union would represent the pilot group's interests better than ALPA was doing at the time. (NIC doesn't affect me, so seniority wasn't the deciding factor) I remember being at the gate in MHT real early one morning....CRJ next door. The lights came on in the CRJ without anyone coming up to the airplane. I looked at the F/O and said..."those guys slept on the airplane!" He looked over and said that was a MESA flight and with less than "X" hours of overnight, they don't get a hotel room! How can ALPA sign that type of contract and then represent our pilot group. Union National secretaries being paid more than line F/Os....something wasn't right.
Trouble is when you vote for change you don't always get what you hoped for.....sounds somewhat familiar doesn't it?
Time will tell....these are all long timeline processes to sort this mess out.
cleardirect
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- May 24, 2008
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An internal union was better in your opinion. You go on to give some examples.
Have you asked what the secretaries at usapa make compared to 190 F/O's?
I have heard other reasons. Don't want to pay money to a national union. An internal union can do it cheaper. Conflict of interest.
Has your dues rate gone down after 3 years or are we still paying the same as ALPA plus assesments? usapa is a member of CAPA. Is usapa's interest always the same as SWA or UPS?
Are we now locked into usapa for the duration? If we go back to ALPA or teamsters it is a national union with conflicts of interest. It will be completely hypocritical to go back to a national union after trying to convince the west it was not about seniority. But conflict of interest and money.
This is one of the problems as the west sees it. East pilots voted completely emotionally and did not think usapa all the way through. You guys had the information but let your anger and history cloud your judgment. So here we are 3 years later no contract no progress and a union created by the east to benefit the east accomplishing nothing. Are you prepared to retire on LOA 93? That is the reality of our situation.
L
luvn737s
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One of the admissions from the west that must be made is that they(we) placed too much faith in ALPA prevailing over USAPA in the representation election and did not build the alliances necessary to nip USAPA in the bud. Now we are forced to dig out of that hole.
John McIlvenna tried to engage them in the east coast crew rooms and was escorted out. This was a pivotal point and should have been answered with a tactical shift rather than retreat and a hope that the east pilots would do the right thing. The west thought they knew how the so-called fence sitters would vote, when I don't think they even had a reliable estimate of how many of them they were and didn't get to know what issues were important to them. Now our careers are in the hands of someone else (again) this time Judge Silver and again we cross our fingers and hope that someone will do the "right thing".
The right thing is to unify the pilot group and that cannot be done under USAPA. It won't be done under TeamSAPA, and ALPA would be too polarizing (at this point). Maybe ALPA could return in 5-10 years, but it's return would not solidify the pilots and get them moving in one direction.
John McIlvenna tried to engage them in the east coast crew rooms and was escorted out. This was a pivotal point and should have been answered with a tactical shift rather than retreat and a hope that the east pilots would do the right thing. The west thought they knew how the so-called fence sitters would vote, when I don't think they even had a reliable estimate of how many of them they were and didn't get to know what issues were important to them. Now our careers are in the hands of someone else (again) this time Judge Silver and again we cross our fingers and hope that someone will do the "right thing".
The right thing is to unify the pilot group and that cannot be done under USAPA. It won't be done under TeamSAPA, and ALPA would be too polarizing (at this point). Maybe ALPA could return in 5-10 years, but it's return would not solidify the pilots and get them moving in one direction.
Clear,
Good questions...Are we locked in to USAPA? No....but again the timeline of current arguments/rulings is lengthy. So change, if it comes, will happen slowly, notwithstanding a desire for it to occur much more quickly.
I can't speak for the whole East, only myself, and it was not an emotional or history clouded judgement. Fortunately, I've enjoyed a fairly good career, one near it's end. Retire on LOA 93?....not up to me, but if so I make basically the same in retirement, so I get to view these arguments with an objective eye as probably possible. My concern is for those left here (both West and East) with many years left under sub-standard contracts. Outside entities are probably going to frame the future environment, given the polarization of competing agendas. In a perfect world, we could be masters of our own destiny.....but that is going to be as hard as the current Washington budget battle....and not very likely. Wish it was different. Maybe buy you a cup of coffee at the airport sometime.
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