US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Plus, given the world as it is today, people are just one big geopolitical event away from losing contract gains. No one can argue the world isn't less stable today than it was a decade. Seniority is the only thing to fall back on.

Agreed. We have seen those contract improvements evaporate quite often on the east. A former MEC told how it was a good idea to give concessions to duty rights for wage improvements. Great idea-I believe we are making less now than before that contract.

One thing I need to say about above post about supporting the east. I don't believe that supporting the east means blindly following USAPA, and often they have taken off down certain roads that have hurt all US pilots. All I can do is be a MIGS, express my beliefs and ideas to my reps, and vote when able. Standing back, doing none of those, and just throwing stones does none of us any good.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Seniority is the only thing to fall back on.

Yes it is - seniority, not longevity. At the time of the merger a 17 year East pilot had the seniority to hold reserve GP2 at best. You want to give that East pilot enough seniority to outbid West 757 captains, while taking seniority away from that West captain.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

We have seen those contract improvements evaporate quite often on the east.

If seniority is negotiable like USAPA says, it's just another of those contract items that can evaporate - just like pay, vacation, rigs, etc.

Jim

 

[Freebird]

You are just sharing the truth with me. That's funny. It's your(and AOL's version) of the truth. You conveniently leave out the "truths" that don't favor your side. I pointed out a few of those from the brochure.

Let me make this really clear-I'd like to find an answer for ALL US Airways pilots, but if I'm going to have to choose between east and west, it will be east.

The mutually chosed arbitrator already "found the answer". Final and Binding, what are you missing about that concept?

You comment that the east is hoping to be made whole at the expense of the west is bullshit and one of the more maddening things you publish. You really don't do anything to help your cause by posting things like that, it just hardens people's resolve.

Then what do you call avoiding/delaying the Nicolau Award? Enlighten us.

A bottom captain could make more with the Kirby, but if he is displaced back to the right seat. it would be a loss. A contract will have to come in much higher than Kirby to even that out. So, until that total package is a better deal, I'm not too worried about LOA 93.

"If he is displaced...?" Alot of if's could happen. Its not just about protecting the East. Until this group is unified USAPA will not have the horsepower to get anything better than Kirby. This management likes for you to negotiate with yourself and USAPA is inept at accomplishing anything so long as its mantra is DOH. So, until then you can choose to enjoy your pathetic LOA93.

My friend is one of the really bottom captains and we figured out a few hundred posts ago that he is about 18% from the bottom of the Nic. How long do you think he will hold on to that left seat? Then maybe he could go back to the right seat of the 76, right? Probably not. He is waaay junior to me and the guy on the Nic above me is not now, and has never been a capt., a 767 F/O, or an A330 F/O. We on the east have seen how long it takes for those guys to migrate, then as Gunter said, the bottom east guys would get to fly F/O reserve or the E190. Wow! Why are those guys not clamoring for a deal?

I know that you and the brochure people are preaching to the senior east pilots. We will see if they respond, but I predict a slow response, absent some as of now unknown event.

Your friend was ratioed in on the award exactly where he should be. It seems hard for you to understand that you cannot have it both ways. You say you want a resolution, but are unwilling to comply (until forced) with the award unless your friend who rightly sits at %18 on the list is protected with super seniority or reparations. Doesnt work that way. DOH is DOA.

They are so stupid. For another week or two of vacation and some other contract enhancements they could have less money, lessened move up potential, and maybe even work all the holidays. What's not to love?

They will get exactly what they should at their ratioed position that they brought to the merger. It's unfortunate that your group is unwilling to honor their agreements. If the truth hardens peoples resolve, so be it. All one has to do is look in the mirror at the problem to see where it begins. Integrity Matters to most, just not the East.

USAPA = Final and Binding = Final and Binding

 

[No Land Green]

If seniority is negotiable like USAPA says, it's just another of those contract items that can evaporate - just like pay, vacation, rigs, etc.

Jim

Yes, it is, just as the entire contract is.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes, it is, just as the entire contract is.

So why the posts about pay (etc) can go away but seniority is forever? One way or the other there are some confused posters on the East side.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

Yes it is - seniority, not longevity. At the time of the merger a 17 year East pilot had the seniority to hold reserve GP2 at best. You want to give that East pilot enough seniority to outbid West 757 captains, while taking seniority away from that West captain.

Jim

......I wonder how ALPA is going to treat the 1,400 UAL Pilots on furlough, now that they have changed the merger policy to include longevity..........

 

[No Land Green]

So why the posts about pay (etc) can go away but seniority is forever? One way or the other there are some confused posters on the East side.

Jim

I never said "seniority is forever". It's negotiable, just as the entire contract is. No confusion here.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I never said "seniority is forever". It's negotiable, just as the entire contract is. No confusion here.

I never said your posts, either. But several of your pals have said that seniority is forever. So who is confused, you or the others.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

I have to laugh at this. USAPA in a worst case scenario = infinite delay of the Nicolau award (You yourself said you don't see USAPA getting a contract). USAPA hasn't cost me a dime more than ALPA would have. In fact, USAPA has made me quite a bit of money because it has PREVENTED implementation of the NIC (Many east pilots would have either been pinned to the bottom on the E190 and some even furloughed like the West pilots).

How has USAPA prevented the implementation of the NIC? I thought that the party line was that the NIC was a PROPOSAL only and that it was nothing absent a ratified contract. So are you saying that USAPA has saved the east pilots from themselves by denying them a vote? They are denying everyone the potential for better pay and benefits by denying the most basic of union tenets - the vote.

Perhaps you are happy with spending 2%+ in order to be starved into health by your union, but there are at least 1800 other pilots who demand real value from their union, and Cleary's hysteria isn't worth the price of admission.

USAPA cannot choose between supporting the east or the west, it's that simple. If they can't see that, then they need to be replaced with a union organized by and in service to adults. Adults who should be trusted to administer their vote in a way that best meets their personal needs and expectations and not simply to perpetuate an artificial civil war with Cleary as their Papa Doc.

Do yourself a favor and support the recall of Cleary and Mowery and then vote for leaders who will bring unity to the union.

Http://pilotrecall.com

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Yes it is - seniority, not longevity. At the time of the merger a 17 year East pilot had the seniority to hold reserve GP2 at best. You want to give that East pilot enough seniority to outbid West 757 captains, while taking seniority away from that West captain.

Jim

Seniority is nothing more than a union creation to bypass the normal free market meritocracy. It is a tool to replace the individual voice in an effort to move together as a collective. It is exactly what the union defines it to be.

 

[No Land Green]

I never said your posts, either. But several of your pals have said that seniority is forever. So who is confused, you or the others.

Jim

My "pals"? I don't know who these posters are. The only person I know on here is Bob Moore, who chose to identify himself.

I'm not confused at all. The entire contract is negotiable, including section 22. Every section can or could change while negotiating with Management.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

How much money has USAPA cost YOU Freebird? Have you made your Leonidas donation this week?

Nevermind.

 

[cactusboy53]

No, I got it-you're an ass and an idiot. Scooter.

Pi;
It seems that someone forgot to put sugar in the USAPA Kool-Aid last night.

The other day one of your co-workers made the statement the he "prayed for the split of this airline"....

Here's mine:

"The wicked plots against the just, And gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord laughs at him. For He sees that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn the sword And have bent their bow. To cast down the poor and needy, To slay those who are of upright conduct. Their sword shall enter their own heart, And their bows shall be broken." Psalm 37: 12-15

Here's another:

"Commit your activities to the Lord and your plans will be achieved." Proverbs 16:3

I am so very sorry for the losses that you have endured. I don't know how this journey that USAPA has taken us on will end, but be assured that we will fight the good fight and finish this race.

Have a great day.

 

[luvthe9]

Always interesting how the West complains more about LOA 93 than the East.

It is the Tokyo Rose thing. They tell you what you should do, because they know they are losing. 5 yrs. into the UNMERGE, 3 YEARS into Nicolau Fantasy. They cannot pull it off, and it galls them to no end. Fully knowing the 9th already bombed them out, and Kasher could possibly be the next "Little Man" headed to their Nicolau fantasy.