US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Freebird]

There will not be a contract for a long, long time. Forget it. I would imagine it will take the system slowly falling apart, day after day because of low morale in every employee category to make them give anybody anything.

This sounds like another DFR to me. How exactly is USAPA looking out for the interests of the West? Or the East for that matter. Is USAPA a one issue association of the AFO?

USAPA = We're happy doing nothing.

 

[Black Swan]

Well I hate to tell you this: A lot of pilots that voted for USAPA as the lesser of two evils would vote the Nic in, if the rest of the contract was reasonable. Such a contract would pass by a slim margin.

If Kasher doesn't come in for the East, you will hear more pilots espouse this sentiment.

Yes, a lot waiting for Kasher. At least we do have something, whatever the odds. Consider this: Piedmont 1984, and a bunch like him. Can hold 767 I right now, rsv capt. And a lot of others in that area of hire. Holding out to keep a decent sked on something smaller. But if they want, the 76 is an option. If they take the Nic, they are locked off the 76 right now, and forever by younger west. That is a fact. What he also needs to realize is what most east pilots do. And that is this: the younger more junior west guys with 13 yrs less tenure are going to go ON TOP of Piedmont 1984 not only in group 1, but group 2 also! So he gets a small raise staying on the group 2, gets crappier vacations forever and bidding position as senior guys retire, and forget the widebody group FOREVER. Now do you get it? The F/O group is the same situation, different seat. None of us buy the raise. The small raise options out the rest of the benefits. You are much better off waiting for Kasher, clarification, and attrition. Simple as that. Lets say clarification goes east way. That is the ONLY way you get a contract. DOH if the west does not come off Nic, and we have the numbers to make the contract go with a raise that the west will hate, and DOH also. That, and Kasher is their risk.

 

[Black Swan]

This sounds like another DFR to me. How exactly is USAPA looking out for the interests of the West? Or the East for that matter. Is USAPA a one issue association of the AFO?

USAPA = We're happy doing nothing.

No, we are patiently waiting. Parker is not offering anything decent anyhow. We know you guys will cross, so we stand pat. That is where we are. Your DFR stuff is a pipe dream. Everybody is going to take it in the shorts here.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Page 12, Brochure 3

After 35 months, USAPA has failed to deliver on any of the above campaign promises. It's not what they say, it's what they do!"

USAPA Campaign Message - Early 2008:
"USAPA NEWS FOR CHANGE CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS"
"You will see a joint agreement, with better economics, sooner under USAPA than under ALPA"
•... This is the "stalemate" you've heard about,
a stalemate that's been going on now for 2 %
years. USAPA will remove this impediment and will
promptly enter into negotiations with management
for a quality contract.
•...The Award, rendered moot as a result of ALPA's
decertification, plays no role.
•...Under USAPA, a contract tentative agreement
will go out to both the East and West pilots for a
majority vote with a good chance of success if it is
a quality contract - money in our pockets."

USAPA President's Message - September 9, 2008:
"You may have heard by now that on September 4th, six West pilots filed a complaint.... Following a preliminary review of the Verified Complaint, our law firm has determined that it has no legal merit. Case precedent confirms that the seniority integration will be resolved at the negotiating table, not in a federal court."
Lee Seham was flat wrong. Despite what is being said at USAPA headquarters, the seniority issue WILL be decided in a courtroom.

USAPA President's Message - June 2, 2009:
"... The quest for total victory at the expense of one's fellow pilots has always been a recipe for failure." Mike Cleary
Based on Mike Cleary's own words, USAPA's quest for total victory in the area of seniority has resulted in its total failure to deliver a contract.
It should be evident that a tiny minority of formerly furloughed pilots residing in the bottom third of the East list continues to hold the real majority hostage over the seniority issue. Although this group accounts for less than one-quarter of the combined group, they continue to hold the real majority hostage over this singular issue. As a result, we will be stuck in our divided state as long as the real majority allows this group to maintain control. In the meantime, all of those improvements USAPA has been promising since before it became the bargaining agent will remain unattainable. West pilots desire full retroactive pay parity and full retro pay for everyone, but we cannot afford to be relegated to the bottom of the list to pay for it.

As a Union Today, USAPA Harms All Pilots
The irrefutable fact is that USAPA, with its current leadership, does not work.
It is irrefutable that USAPA is not equally representing US Airways pilots as a result of the seniority fight. USAPA's commitment to continuing its DOH quest is now the real roadblock to achieving economic gains for all US Airways pilots, especially East pilots. East pilots continue to toil under intolerable working conditions and wages, which are known to be the worst in the entire industry. Under USAPA's leadership, the only winner has been Lee Seham and his venal law firm.

 

[Freebird]

Yes, a lot waiting for Kasher. At least we do have something, whatever the odds. Consider this: Piedmont 1984, and a bunch like him. Can hold 767 I right now, rsv capt. And a lot of others in that area of hire. Holding out to keep a decent sked on something smaller. But if they want, the 76 is an option. If they take the Nic, they are locked off the 76 right now, and forever by younger west. That is a fact. What he also needs to realize is what most east pilots do. And that is this: the younger more junior west guys with 13 yrs less tenure are going to go ON TOP of Piedmont 1984 not only in group 1, but group 2 also! So he gets a small raise staying on the group 2, gets crappier vacations forever and bidding position as senior guys retire, and forget the widebody group FOREVER. Now do you get it? The F/O group is the same situation, different seat. None of us buy the raise. The small raise options out the rest of the benefits. You are much better off waiting for Kasher, clarification, and attrition. Simple as that. Lets say clarification goes east way. That is the ONLY way you get a contract. DOH if the west does not come off Nic, and we have the numbers to make the contract go with a raise that the west will hate, and DOH also. That, and Kasher is their risk.

Keep clicking your heels Dorothy. In the meantime the troops are getting restless and tired of USAPA's lies and b.s. Your pilots are losing money and time to recapture what you've squandered in hopes of not complying with the arbitrated list. You have repeatedly failed to improve the conditions for any pilot and will continue do so. Your only success has been delay, but that comes at a high price and time is running out for USAPA.

You can manufacture fear for the East pilots with your statements, but your messages are becoming more desperate and unconvincing. At least you're consistent. The goal for USAPA is to delay long enough to help out those running it. Thier egos are costing the East and West pilots Millions of dollars each year. Where is your integrity for honoring your agreement?

USAPA = Still crazy after all these years.

 

[prechilill]

Me pay for it? Both sides will pay. It is that simple. The reality is this merger is just not going to take place. Unless someone gets a better idea, they have got both sides right where they want us.

Uh oh- Nos is convinced it is happening this year. So I guess we can rule out you are the same poster, even though the second you post 3 bright green recs show up...
Must be a couple other handles.

 

[luvn737s]

Yes, a lot waiting for Kasher. At least we do have something, whatever the odds. Consider this: Piedmont 1984, and a bunch like him. Can hold 767 I right now, rsv capt. And a lot of others in that area of hire. Holding out to keep a decent sked on something smaller. But if they want, the 76 is an option. If they take the Nic, they are locked off the 76 right now, and forever by younger west. That is a fact. What he also needs to realize is what most east pilots do. And that is this: the younger more junior west guys with 13 yrs less tenure are going to go ON TOP of Piedmont 1984 not only in group 1, but group 2 also! So he gets a small raise staying on the group 2, gets crappier vacations forever and bidding position as senior guys retire, and forget the widebody group FOREVER. Now do you get it? The F/O group is the same situation, different seat. None of us buy the raise. The small raise options out the rest of the benefits. You are much better off waiting for Kasher, clarification, and attrition. Simple as that. Lets say clarification goes east way. That is the ONLY way you get a contract. DOH if the west does not come off Nic, and we have the numbers to make the contract go with a raise that the west will hate, and DOH also. That, and Kasher is their risk.

How long will the east remain married to this ridiculous fear mongering? Your scenario has the slimmest of credibility ONLY if:

1. There is never another PHX upgrade
2. All seat locks are removed
3. There is never any widebody equipment in any other base other than PHL,CLT
4. There is never another base opened
5. etc., etc., etc.

So ALL of these requirements must be met (and others) before your apocalyptic prophecy of west domination can come true. Why not go with the much more likely scenario that things remain alot like they are now for quite a while with a smattering of west widebody upgrades but with the assurance of much higher pay and better benefits for all?

The answer is that if Cleary and USAPA allowed the reality of reason to see the light of day, he would be shown the door in favor of a true leader who can provide the many benefits of union membership.

BS- Your post was the one that provided sufficient motivation to break my self-imposed exile. But that's all I can really say. If you choose fear over reason, then every other word is wasted.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Page 13, Brochure 3

The inequities in the way in which USAPA represents US Airways pilots are blatant:

•The overwhelming majority of USAPA leadership and committee
structure continues to be made up of East pilots. This prevents
the diversity and productivity promised during the USAPA
President's Message of March 21, 2008.
•USAPA's DOH C&Rs are more restrictive than what the East
originally submitted to Nicolau, benefiting only East interests.
•Except for the most basic representational duties required by
law, USAPA is driven purely to achieve DOH and East desires,
often at the expense of the former America West pilots.
•USAPA has failed to live up to the clear intent of the Transition
Agreement by including an equal number of West members on
the Negotiating Advisory Committee. In fact, there are no West
pilots on the Negotiating Advisory Committee. Considering the
delay in achieving any meaningful contractual improvements, it
is obvious the NAC needs the assistance of West negotiators
who have considerable experience with current US Airways
management.
•The USAPA Communications Committee makes every effort
to squelch and/or censor any communications that are deemed
contrary to the singular will of the USAPA President and his
DOH faithful. This is anything but conducive to a healthy
democracy.
•West pilots remain gravely underrepresented on all USAPA
Committees. This is a direct result of the President's singular
authority to appoint committee personnel and his stubborn
refusal to do so in representative numbers.

"Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself. It is the hallmark of an authoritarian regime..." [Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)]

USAPA leadership and its legal team continue to promote the false hope that they will achieve DOH. This single issue and belief makes USAPA incapable of properly representing US Airways pilots as long as it is guided only by this improper objective. All US Airways pilots will continue to suffer under USAPA's breach of its Duty of Fair Representation for as long as this situation exists.

"We only ask that you look at what ALPA does, not what they say. ALPA has had 31 months to achieve contract improvements yet has not even managed pay parity..."[USAPA 04-16-08]

After 35 months, we simply ask US Airways pilots to look at what USAPA has failed to accomplish while guided only by its Date-of-Hire objective.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Page 13, con't- Brochure 3

Are We Really Professional Aviators?

In order to be compensated as the professionals we are, we will have to come together for our common goals and Eventually, East and West pilots will be required to share the cockpit. A disturbing theme sometimes heard on the line is that this cannot safely be done. This is absurd. To promote the idea that "the most senior and experienced group of commercial pilots in the United States" cannot safely operate with one another because of this dispute very much denigrates our profession. This too, undermines our collective ability to put pressure on the company.

Our recommendation is that any US Airways pilot who feels that he or she lacks the emotional maturity to fly with anyone from the opposite system should consider another line of work. To promote such a concept in an effort to prevent our integration is simply childish. At both Continental and United, strikers and strikebreakers have been sharing a cockpit for over two decades without negative safety implications. TWA/Ozark, NWA/Republic, and AA/TWA were also mergers that involved high levels of emotion. If these pilots can fly together safely, surely the most experienced pilots in the industry can do the same after our dispute. The day will come when we will ALL be better served pretending this ugly affair just never happened. In the meantime, to state that you cannot operate safely with any pilot because of our current argument really shows a lack of discipline. This applies to pilots from all sides of the debate.

 

[Freebird]

No, we are patiently waiting. Parker is not offering anything decent anyhow. We know you guys will cross, so we stand pat. That is where we are. Your DFR stuff is a pipe dream. Everybody is going to take it in the shorts here.

We already have taken it in the shorts. USAPA is just prolonging the torture because they, you, are impotent and ineffective. USAPA will need unity to achieve anything around here and they have done everything they can to destroy it. Luckily most of the professional pilots of the East and the West can see beyond USAPA's impotence and would like to improve the pay and working conditions. The West fears that USAPA will give up anything in order to achieve DOH, only to by stymied in an Injunction and DFR II, and give up the better parts of the West contract. Your desperation is hurting all US Airways pilots.

Parker doesnt have to offer anything yet, he rather enjoys watching USAPA dig itself deeper into its rathole. I'm certain that a contract with the NIC would pass on this property with Delta or similar pay. USAPA is afraid of this and redirects attention of its cheerleaders away from their failures and inability to produce. The Peanut Gallery cheers for Commander Cleary's tirades, unknownly hurting themselves in hopes of "reparations" on the backs of the West pilots. That is the pipe dream USAPA is persuing.

USAPA = Wasting your time.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Last page, Brochure 3

Getting There Will Take UNITY!

Moving Forward

Back in the early days of our merger, there was a palpable spirit of "Coast-to-Coast" unity. Prior to the release of Nicolau's decision. East and West pilots were truly gaining momentum. We were standing side-by-side on the picket line and earnestly working together to bring about an "industry leading" contract. Thanks to the lack of true leadership displayed by USAPA, this seems nearly impossible today. There was a time when passing a pilot from the other side of the Mississippi and actually taking the time to stop and shake their hand while engaging in meaningful conversation was common. "Coast-to-Coast Unity" and the amicable interaction between East and West ended on May 3rd, 2007 when the Nicolau Award became public. It was shortly thereafter when the EAST MEC unilaterally withdrew from negotiations and all other efforts to obtain a joint contract while dragging the West pilots down the current path of "Date of Hire or Nothing." As a result, we all have nothing to show for it.

To obtain the sort of contractual gains necessary and achievable, the rebirth of the true unity we once enjoyed will be required. However, with junior East pilots focused only on "Date-of-Hire at all costs" making virtually every decision, unity remains a distant dream. It should be clear that too many elected representatives, committee members, and officers derive and maintain their power by manipulating the emotions of the seniority dispute for their own personal empowerment.

The former America West pilots comprise one-third of the combined pilot group. As West pilots, we cannot, and will not, support a DOH contract. This is necessary because a DOH contract would effectively "staple" 85% of the West pilots to the bottom 25% of the list. Irrespective of "Conditions and Restrictions," we cannot allow such a precedent to be set.

Furthermore, if USAPA's plan ultimately succeeds, then our seniority will forever be subject to the whims of the majority, every time a new contract is negotiated. The majority, looking only to their self-interest, cannot be allowed to solely determine what is "fair and equitable" every few years- that is exactly why disputes such as ours are submitted to "final and binding" arbitration in the first place.

Until the Date-of-Hire objective is removed, unity will not be possible.

Moving Forward
Throughout this publication, we have supplied the facts and provided details about what your representatives knew. We have also shown that a major cause for the delay in obtaining a new labor contract can be attributed to USAPA's flawed Date-of-Hire objective and its current leadership team. The current USAPA leadership continues to mislead and obscure the facts about who alone is really preventing US Airways pilots from enjoying the monetary gains and contractual improvements we deserve. USAPA's recent NAC mailing placed all of the blame on the company. While we agree that the company could have done a better job managing our merger, solely blaming US Airways management for the delay in achieving a labor contract shows a failure to tell the whole truth. A labor contract will simply not be possible until Section 22 is resolved. Negotiations under USAPA appear to be a delay tactic while the seniority dispute, created by USAPA, works its way through the court system. It is the founders of USAPA and the pilots who supported Seham's invention of a "Date-of-Hire Constitutional Objective" whom have caused the real delay on the road to a worthwhile labor contract.

We understand that the unfortunate circumstances which plagued the former US Airways for two decades were not the fault of East pilots. Likewise, West pilots were not responsible for those circumstances and cannot be forced to pay reparations. We wish only success and prosperity for ALL US Airways pilots, and we desire the richest labor contract attainable while the industry is profitable. We foremost, however, shall remain committed to protecting our seniority rights. The quest to evade contractual obligations in an attempt to advance the interests of East pilots at the expense of West pilots will continue to fail, as "No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside..."

The choice is yours today: Continue the legal battle for years to come while forfeiting pay and contractual improvements; or, accept the seniority arbitration, reform USAPA, and work together to obtain a superior contract. Contractual improvements will remain unattainable as long as our seniority integration remains disputed by USAPA.

Sincerely.

LEONIDAS LLC
www.cactuspilot.com

 

[Black Swan]

How long will the east remain married to this ridiculous fear mongering? Your scenario has the slimmest of credibility ONLY if:

1. There is never another PHX upgrade
2. All seat locks are removed
3. There is never any widebody equipment in any other base other than PHL,CLT
4. There is never another base opened
5. etc., etc., etc.

So ALL of these requirements must be met (and others) before your apocalyptic prophecy of west domination can come true. Why not go with the much more likely scenario that things remain alot like they are now for quite a while with a smattering of west widebody upgrades but with the assurance of much higher pay and better benefits for all?

The answer is that if Cleary and USAPA allowed the reality of reason to see the light of day, he would be shown the door in favor of a true leader who can provide the many benefits of union membership.

BS- Your post was the one that provided sufficient motivation to break my self-imposed exile. But that's all I can really say. If you choose fear over reason, then every other word is wasted.

Welcome back. I am not debating any of you. I am telling you what you are up against with most east pilots. Unless somebody comes up with a plan both sides can live with, we live with what we now have. It is that simple. Call it apocalyptic or what you want. Remember, a lot of us are under 10 yrs.Many near 5. We really don't need it as much as you think.

 

[Black Swan]

Keep clicking your heels Dorothy. In the meantime the troops are getting restless and tired of USAPA's lies and b.s. Your pilots are losing money and time to recapture what you've squandered in hopes of not complying with the arbitrated list. You have repeatedly failed to improve the conditions for any pilot and will continue do so. Your only success has been delay, but that comes at a high price and time is running out for USAPA.

You can manufacture fear for the East pilots with your statements, but your messages are becoming more desperate and unconvincing. At least you're consistent. The goal for USAPA is to delay long enough to help out those running it. Thier egos are costing the East and West pilots Millions of dollars each year. Where is your integrity for honoring your agreement?

USAPA = Still crazy after all these years.

You are losing money too. Don't forget we know that . You are as locked up as we are. I hate to inform you, but Parker is not going to even begin to offer an industry contract. Unless both sides unite, we won't get it. I don't see it ever happening, so take it for what it is. I am riding out another yr. on group two, then taking the 76I left seat as the attrition kicks in. That's my plan. What is yours?

 

[Black Swan]

Uh oh- Nos is convinced it is happening this year. So I guess we can rule out you are the same poster, even though the second you post 3 bright green recs show up...
Must be a couple other handles.

If that is what you wish to think, have at it.

 

[Black Swan]

Keep clicking your heels Dorothy. In the meantime the troops are getting restless and tired of USAPA's lies and b.s. Your pilots are losing money and time to recapture what you've squandered in hopes of not complying with the arbitrated list. You have repeatedly failed to improve the conditions for any pilot and will continue do so. Your only success has been delay, but that comes at a high price and time is running out for USAPA.

You can manufacture fear for the East pilots with your statements, but your messages are becoming more desperate and unconvincing. At least you're consistent. The goal for USAPA is to delay long enough to help out those running it. Thier egos are costing the East and West pilots Millions of dollars each year. Where is your integrity for honoring your agreement?

USAPA = Still crazy after all these years.

I told you my plan. What is so desperate about it? You are losing credibility when you try the Tokyo Rose routine. It makes you sound desperate. You have a good deal. PHX Airbus. Good weather. Enjoy! I've got my plan going. I have no worries whatsoever. The Integrity part? You can do whatever you want. I don't call caving in to a guy 13 yrs junior to me not having integrity. I call it standing up for my rights. If it were 1863 and you tried to tell me I had no INTEGRIY because I was black and wouldn't call you Massah, I'd burn your white house down.Same goes for today. You aren't getting it until you serve your time. That, is a fact.