cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
- 7,407
So SIMPLE, even a caveman can do it......
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*191399882!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search/certs-pilot.html
US Pilots Labor Discussion
- Thread starter Richard
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So SIMPLE, even a caveman can do it......
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*191399882!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search/certs-pilot.html
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
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There will not be a contract for a long, long time. Forget it. I would imagine it will take the system slowly falling apart, day after day because of low morale in every employee category to make them give anybody anything.
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
So remind me, why did I vote for USAPA?
At what point in time do the benefits of a fully unified pilot group, at the price of accepting the NIC but achieving a decent contract, exceed the benefits of the status quo, while holding the NIC at bay?
Just askin.
N924PS
Veteran
- May 9, 2004
- 2,036
- 1,529
Excellent question. More and more East pilots (including F/O's) are asking this question with each passing day and delay.
Metroyet
Veteran
- Nov 1, 2008
- 2,571
- 5,664
Finally an honest, no BS statement from the King of B.S..
This is your idea of a successful long term plan? How much are you willing to pay for it?
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
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The reality is this: most east pilots find the Nic just too onerous. They aren't going to go for it. Sounds like the west is just as firm going for the Nic. Therefore, the reality is a stalemate. Unless someone comes up with a decent compromise, it is status quo. Just observin'
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
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Me pay for it? Both sides will pay. It is that simple. The reality is this merger is just not going to take place. Unless someone gets a better idea, they have got both sides right where they want us.
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
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Hate to tell you the truth, but I really don't hear anybody caving on the Nic. I doubt if anybody out west is changing either. That is where it is. Just like WW1 trench warfare.
aquagreen73s
Veteran
- Aug 22, 2005
- 1,979
- 1,877
Hmmm. That's funny. When they're on the jumpseat they're saying something different.
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
Or Vietnam - no exit strategy, no end game.
No one is caving on the Nic yet. But I think there's a threshold out there and we will cross it long before a "long long time" from now - for the sake of sanity, unity, a contract and the most junior among us.
cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
- 7,407
Ahhhhh.....So Christmas arrives before Easter for Doug Parker and LCC. A YEARLY gift of MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars!! Real men of Genius.....USAPA.
USAPA = "Don't worry Boys! We've got them right where they want us!!"
N924PS
Veteran
- May 9, 2004
- 2,036
- 1,529
Well I hate to tell you this: A lot of pilots that voted for USAPA as the lesser of two evils would vote the Nic in, if the rest of the contract was reasonable. Such a contract would pass by a slim margin.
If Kasher doesn't come in for the East, you will hear more pilots espouse this sentiment.
- Feb 10, 2011
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Page 10, Brochure 3
B737/A320 Captains Now Forfeit Over $45,000 Annually for DOH!
Since USAPA was elected almost three years ago, eight other US airlines (shown in Fig. 6) have ratified new pilot labor contracts, all with pay rates well in excess of US Airways. According to analysts, 2010 was one of the most profitable on record. USAPA concedes that a contract is still 18 to 24 months away. Hence, for the second time since the merger, US Airways pilots will remain on bankruptcy wages while the company posts record profits. Will the US Airways pilots profit from this rising tide?
The chart below shows a narrowbody Captain's 2011 annual pay by airline. It also shows the current union as well as the year of the last labor agreement. Numbers are based on 85/hours/month. The JetBlue pay reflects a 50% override on time flown over 78 hours. *The US Airways 1998 contract was modified in 2002 and 2004.
Pilots represented by USAPA make less than Regional and Non-Scheduled Carriers
In recent months. Horizon Air, which is represented by The International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT), and Air Transport International (ATI), which is represented by ALPA, both ratified new contracts. Their prior pay was already on a par with that of US Airways, and the new rates are sure to be well in excess of those at LCC. Horizon's pre-contract rate was $121/hour for a CRJ-700 Captain, while ATI currently pays a DC-8 Captain $1 58/hour.
If only these were two isolated cases. The sad truth is that the majority of large national, regional and non-scheduled airlines earn far more than the US Airways pilot group. Additional examples include Airborne ($239/hr - B767), Evergreen ($180/hr- B747), Kalitta ($1 76/hr - B747), Atlas ($176/hr- B747), World ($160/hr - MD11), Miami Air ($142/hr- B737), USA3000 ($133/hr- A320), Virgin America ($133/hr - A320) and Sun Country ($127/hr - B737). Even an EMB-170 CPT at US Airways Express carrier Republic makes almost as much as his Group II mainline counterpart: $119/hour. This represents an hourly rate which is $21/hour more than a mainline EMB-190 Captain. The USAPA Negotiation Advisory Committee's (NAC) failure to negotiate a new contract will have an interesting (and negative) effect on contract negotiations at even Regional and Non-scheduled carriers. How can these pilot groups ask for industry-standard rates, when they already earn more than the pilots of the fifth-largest passenger airline in the country? The inability of the NAC and its "Professional Negotiator" to negotiate even the smallest improvement is no longer negatively affecting just the US Airways pilot group, but it is now holding back an entire industry.
The "Kirby Proposal," offered by management on May 8th, 2007, was a comprehensive proposition that demonstrated the company's willingness to complete negotiations. [Addington transcripts, Dotter - day 2, Stephan - day 6]
Contrary to USAPA propaganda, the Kirby proposal is unacceptable to the West, The Kirby proposal is unacceptable for Pay and Benefits, unacceptable for Work Rules, and absolutely unacceptable for Scope. Kirby proposed a Group II CA rate of $152. The JNC proposed $173. If the East contingent to the Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) had not walked out, "close out" negotiations would likely have yielded a compromise around $162, which approximates the New Delta Air Lines rate. East pilots have given up at least a 30% pay increase for nearly three years and continue to give up increases in pay and benefits.
B737/A320 Captains Now Forfeit Over $45,000 Annually for DOH!
Since USAPA was elected almost three years ago, eight other US airlines (shown in Fig. 6) have ratified new pilot labor contracts, all with pay rates well in excess of US Airways. According to analysts, 2010 was one of the most profitable on record. USAPA concedes that a contract is still 18 to 24 months away. Hence, for the second time since the merger, US Airways pilots will remain on bankruptcy wages while the company posts record profits. Will the US Airways pilots profit from this rising tide?
The chart below shows a narrowbody Captain's 2011 annual pay by airline. It also shows the current union as well as the year of the last labor agreement. Numbers are based on 85/hours/month. The JetBlue pay reflects a 50% override on time flown over 78 hours. *The US Airways 1998 contract was modified in 2002 and 2004.
Pilots represented by USAPA make less than Regional and Non-Scheduled Carriers
In recent months. Horizon Air, which is represented by The International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT), and Air Transport International (ATI), which is represented by ALPA, both ratified new contracts. Their prior pay was already on a par with that of US Airways, and the new rates are sure to be well in excess of those at LCC. Horizon's pre-contract rate was $121/hour for a CRJ-700 Captain, while ATI currently pays a DC-8 Captain $1 58/hour.
If only these were two isolated cases. The sad truth is that the majority of large national, regional and non-scheduled airlines earn far more than the US Airways pilot group. Additional examples include Airborne ($239/hr - B767), Evergreen ($180/hr- B747), Kalitta ($1 76/hr - B747), Atlas ($176/hr- B747), World ($160/hr - MD11), Miami Air ($142/hr- B737), USA3000 ($133/hr- A320), Virgin America ($133/hr - A320) and Sun Country ($127/hr - B737). Even an EMB-170 CPT at US Airways Express carrier Republic makes almost as much as his Group II mainline counterpart: $119/hour. This represents an hourly rate which is $21/hour more than a mainline EMB-190 Captain. The USAPA Negotiation Advisory Committee's (NAC) failure to negotiate a new contract will have an interesting (and negative) effect on contract negotiations at even Regional and Non-scheduled carriers. How can these pilot groups ask for industry-standard rates, when they already earn more than the pilots of the fifth-largest passenger airline in the country? The inability of the NAC and its "Professional Negotiator" to negotiate even the smallest improvement is no longer negatively affecting just the US Airways pilot group, but it is now holding back an entire industry.
The "Kirby Proposal," offered by management on May 8th, 2007, was a comprehensive proposition that demonstrated the company's willingness to complete negotiations. [Addington transcripts, Dotter - day 2, Stephan - day 6]
Contrary to USAPA propaganda, the Kirby proposal is unacceptable to the West, The Kirby proposal is unacceptable for Pay and Benefits, unacceptable for Work Rules, and absolutely unacceptable for Scope. Kirby proposed a Group II CA rate of $152. The JNC proposed $173. If the East contingent to the Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) had not walked out, "close out" negotiations would likely have yielded a compromise around $162, which approximates the New Delta Air Lines rate. East pilots have given up at least a 30% pay increase for nearly three years and continue to give up increases in pay and benefits.
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
- 5,045
Funny how this is always an east issue. You are also giving a tidy donation, and will continue to do so. Your insistence on the Nic has cost your senior pilots serious money also.
- Feb 10, 2011
- 1,647
- 5,392
Page 11, Brochure 3
Is Pay Parity / Retoactive Pay in Jeopardy?
As West pilots, we support USAPA's efforts to obtain parity and retro pay for ALL pilots. It is an unfortunate fact that separate operations caused by the failure to negotiate a combined contract has saved the company hundreds of millions of dollars which should have gone to the US Airways pilot group.
The West Contract became amendable in January 2007, and the East contract became amendable in January 2010. This would mean that East and West pilots have earned retro pay to those dates, respectively. This would also benefit the East Group I and Group II pilots, since their parity pay would increase by
virtue of the improved West pay rate. As of January 1, 2010, ALL US Airways pilots should be earning FULL retroactive pay.
Based on our calculations using only the current Delta Air Lines contract as a basis, the combined parity/retro amounts that are owed to the US Airways pilot group are astounding. As of December 2010, the amounts vary between $25,000 for an A330 FO, to $1 30,000 for an East Group II Captain. The average retro/ parity amount for all US Airways pilots would be about $82,000. The cost to the company would be approximately $328 million, something they can very well afford.
There is an obstacle to acquiring this money, and it is called Date-of-Hire! USAPA's continued insistence on DOH is holding upcontract negotiations. Does it make any sense for the company to sign a joint contract with USAPA that raises costs, but will immediately result in another lawsuit by the West? Notwithstanding "ripeness," a jury already found that there could be no legitimate union objective to abandoning the arbitrated award. The company's reluctance to abandon the Nicolau Award when faced with this situation is elementary. It has been nearly two-and-one-half years since USAPA first pushed its DOH list across the negotiating table to the company. To date, there has been no official response from the company other than the filing of the US Airways litigation. This fact speaks volumes about the company's opinion of the legal realities. US Airways opinion is plainly contrary to USAPA's interpretation and it is with US Airways that USAPA must negotiate.
Consider also that USAPA's DOH list came with an offer that any CEO would covet: a cost neutral pilot contract! Certainly senior East pilots should be displeased with such a strategy. Visit www.cactuspilot.com/Sehamcostneutral.mov to view a video of Lee Seham stating that USAPA would offer US Airways a low-cost contract in exchange for a Date-of-Hire seniority list. The current leadership of USAPA is the problem, and not the solution. In pursuing DOH at the expense of everything else, the Negotiating Advisory Committee appears to be pursuing only their personal interests, rather than those of the entire US Airways pilot group. After considering the fact that all members of the MAC were furloughed East pilots at the time of the merger, it becomes apparent that they have, by far, the most to gain with DOH. As a result, we will not have a contract anywhere in the near future and no US Airways pilot will receive parity/retro pay or any meaningful improvement in pay or benefits while we continue on a path that has produced nothing during the last three years.
Is Pay Parity / Retoactive Pay in Jeopardy?
As West pilots, we support USAPA's efforts to obtain parity and retro pay for ALL pilots. It is an unfortunate fact that separate operations caused by the failure to negotiate a combined contract has saved the company hundreds of millions of dollars which should have gone to the US Airways pilot group.
The West Contract became amendable in January 2007, and the East contract became amendable in January 2010. This would mean that East and West pilots have earned retro pay to those dates, respectively. This would also benefit the East Group I and Group II pilots, since their parity pay would increase by
virtue of the improved West pay rate. As of January 1, 2010, ALL US Airways pilots should be earning FULL retroactive pay.
Based on our calculations using only the current Delta Air Lines contract as a basis, the combined parity/retro amounts that are owed to the US Airways pilot group are astounding. As of December 2010, the amounts vary between $25,000 for an A330 FO, to $1 30,000 for an East Group II Captain. The average retro/ parity amount for all US Airways pilots would be about $82,000. The cost to the company would be approximately $328 million, something they can very well afford.
There is an obstacle to acquiring this money, and it is called Date-of-Hire! USAPA's continued insistence on DOH is holding upcontract negotiations. Does it make any sense for the company to sign a joint contract with USAPA that raises costs, but will immediately result in another lawsuit by the West? Notwithstanding "ripeness," a jury already found that there could be no legitimate union objective to abandoning the arbitrated award. The company's reluctance to abandon the Nicolau Award when faced with this situation is elementary. It has been nearly two-and-one-half years since USAPA first pushed its DOH list across the negotiating table to the company. To date, there has been no official response from the company other than the filing of the US Airways litigation. This fact speaks volumes about the company's opinion of the legal realities. US Airways opinion is plainly contrary to USAPA's interpretation and it is with US Airways that USAPA must negotiate.
Consider also that USAPA's DOH list came with an offer that any CEO would covet: a cost neutral pilot contract! Certainly senior East pilots should be displeased with such a strategy. Visit www.cactuspilot.com/Sehamcostneutral.mov to view a video of Lee Seham stating that USAPA would offer US Airways a low-cost contract in exchange for a Date-of-Hire seniority list. The current leadership of USAPA is the problem, and not the solution. In pursuing DOH at the expense of everything else, the Negotiating Advisory Committee appears to be pursuing only their personal interests, rather than those of the entire US Airways pilot group. After considering the fact that all members of the MAC were furloughed East pilots at the time of the merger, it becomes apparent that they have, by far, the most to gain with DOH. As a result, we will not have a contract anywhere in the near future and no US Airways pilot will receive parity/retro pay or any meaningful improvement in pay or benefits while we continue on a path that has produced nothing during the last three years.
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