US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

I can't find where the 9th said "internal union dispute".

There is this quote...The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA,
is binding on USAPA.

Don't see "Internal union dispute" in there. I see product of the internal rules and process of ALPA. That process included and ended with "binding arbitration", and no judge, including the liberals at the 9th are going to toss a binding arbitration.

All I see in the conclusion is not ripe, and you are correct, they said exactly when it would become ripe, and spelled out exactly why usapa will lose when it becomes "unquestionably ripe".

CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

No worries though, the West will not have a ripe case, because the company is going to tell uspa to shove their DOH pipedream.

The quantity of one's words is inversely proportional to the quantity of one's worry.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The quantity of one's words is inversely proportional to the quantity of one's worry.

Since you're generally a person of relatively few words, you must be really worried then. Are you sure about that inversely proportional part?

Jim

 

[prechilill]

That was a beautiful post BB! Seriously, one of the best ever on here.

 

[cleardirect]

The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that you absolutely don't know. It is the one absolute truth you have finally spoken over the last 3 years. I'm glad you agree that there will be 1200+ people leaving on the East. A pilot that is 3400 on the east now will be 2200 on the East in 5 years. Right now.....in the worst of economic times....the bottom Group 2 captain is 2265. Absent a merger or a catastrophic event, that pilot will be able to hold a group 2 captain slot. Are some of those 1200 out on medical right now.....absolutely.......but look at the bids for the last 5 years.......A seniority number between 2100 to 2300 has held a group 2 captain position during that entire time. Is something going to happen to change that number? Perhaps.....but it's more likely that the number will go to 2400 than 1900.

I think Jim has pointed out that you are mistaken in your calculation of who are captains and what the retirement’s means. Your statement that new hires will be gp2 captains in 5 years is totally false. Either you don’t know what you are talking about or you are lying.

You say the junior captain goes to 2265. How many GP2 captains are there? How many GP 1 captains are there?

The next piece of information that we need is how many F/O’s are there?

Jim posted the retirement number for the next 5 years.
2011 - 0 / 0
2012 - 7 / 3
2013 - 138 / 43
2014 - 198 / 58
2015 - 180 / 42

523 retirements in the next 5 years. But 146 don’t count for movement because they will not be replaced. Leaving only 377. We also know that of the number about 1/3 are F/O’s so that does not get anyone a captain spot. So in the end in the next 5 years you can expect to see a net change of about 265. But let’s be generous and say 300 in the next 5 years. Are there only 300 F/O’s on the east side?

So just a little calculation and I estimate that it will be 2021-2022 before the new hire see a junior GP2 captain seat. Do you really think that this is going to another 10 years as separate ops or standalone carrier? Do you think that new hires are going to want to sit around while you old guys fight of seniority on LOA 93 wages?

If you do you are in need of some serious help.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

523 retirements in the next 5 years. But 146 don’t count for movement because they will not be replaced. Leaving only 377. We also know that of the number about 1/3 are F/O’s so that does not get anyone a captain spot. So in the end in the next 5 years you can expect to see a net change of about 265. But let’s be generous and say 300 in the next 5 years.

Every one of those 377 will be placed below east new hires. (assuming min fleet and keeping 190s and no one else goes on LTD)
How many total pilots leave on the west?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

. Do you really think that this is going to another 10 years as separate ops or standalone carrier? Do you think that new hires are going to want to sit around while you old guys fight of seniority on LOA 93 wages?

If you do you are in need of some serious help.

Actually we don't, we all know like an old car it is worth more in pieces than the whole thing, It's that risk thing! MM!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Actually we don't, we all know like an old car it is worth more in pieces than the whole thing, It's that risk thing! MM!

You've been on this same mantra now for what, a year now? Still hasn't happened and nobody is even remotely hinting at this possibility (the exact opposite really), except for the few posters on this board who can't come to grips with the reality of the NIC so they invent some outlandish scenario to show how the east will "win" even though they know the NIC will be upheld in the final analysis. How much time will have to pass for you to admit this was just a straw man that never had a basis in reality?

 

[767jetz]

Times are tough.

How is the sunset provision going for the Ual pilots. I have heard that they can furlough only former United pilots by the end of the year. Is this true?

Times are tougher for some than others, particularly those on LOA93.

I asked my ALPA rep that very question today. Not that you really care to know the truth if it doesn't support your claims, delusions, or fantasies... but since you asked the question, and given your obsession with all things United (due no doubt to your numerous rejections), I will fill you in.

First of all name one pilot group outside of UA/CO that has furlough protections at all. It doesn't exist. The last furlough clause was the one in UA's contract 2000, which was eliminated immediately after 9/11 using the force majeure clause. CO had one in their current contract negotiated long before this merger, that was triggered in the event of a merger. When the TPA was negotiated, UA ALPA was able to get a "me too" provision, but only for 18 months, which does expire in December. So the simple reality is that you can be furloughed tomorrow, while the junior pilot at UA has protection until the end of the year.

There is an unconfirmed rumor floating around that UA wants to park CO's old 767-200's. Even if this is true, it amounts to about 6 airframes, plus CO is continuing to take deliveries. I will say that IF furloughs happened before a JCBA, then UA pilots will not only absorb our reductions, but CO's as well since they have indefinite furlough protection until the JCBA. But as I already corrected you (and to which you never responded by admitting your error) UA's block hours will be flat for 2011, with no reductions at all, only postponing the expansion. (As opposed to your recently announce 2% reduction... US Airways cutting and downsizing )

see, I can mis-quote facts and cut and paste articles just like you!

Here is why it is all a moot point though. (Get the tissues ready Nos. Your prayers for UA furloughs will not happen.) If there is no TA on a JCBA by around June, there will already be a strike vote with overwhelming support, and the NMB will be petitioned for release. So come December, there will either be a new JCBA in place making the furlough clause on both sides extinct, or UA/CO will be on strike. Of course at that point furloughs can happen at UA in reverse seniority order just like any other airline, based on the SLI that will NOT be DOH.

Here's some more inside info for you. When the NMB joined the process both sides were put on notice that the the NMB has little time, patience, or taxpayer money to drag this out or tolerate any indication of bad faith bargaining. On the first meeting the company tried to impress the NMB by passing paper across the table. ALPA turned the proposal around with our counter within 24 hours, noting to the NMB that the company was sitting on those papers for over 100 days. They were not impressed and the company was warned. Since then several other sections have been closed out with expedited effort.

Now for the end game. There are 3 main sections remaining; work rules, pay, and scope. The company passed their work rules proposal to ALPA last week. (Contrary to your assertion that negotiations are at a standstill) We have a bag of tricks ready to go to communicate our displeasure with the pace. The first of which was a massive picketing and public advertising campaign against the company. After looking at the proposal, OUR negotiators told the leadership to "hold your powder" since they felt there was movement and our counter will bring us close to closing that section.

Pay is the easiest since it is a simple math equation. We expect that section to take a week or two at the most. That leaves the most complicated and probably most contentious section of Scope for last. And it's anybody's guess how long that will take.

Some more food for thought. Did it ever occur to you that the company wants to leave the pilots contract for last? IAM already got a TA for the CO f/a's. Now the mechanics have a TA. UA f/a's are looking to boot AFA and get a contract with the IAM as CO has done. Historically, the pilots have gotten the best contract, and then everyone else cries for "me too." So it is in the companies best interest to save the most expensive for last, knowing that we gave up the most and are looking for the most in return.

So that is where we are now. Please continue to post your regular UA updates here, since it's entertaining reading your amateur analysis and incorrect assumptions. I know much of the above is foreign to you, since your union has no unity or leverage, and the thought of closing out ANY sections of your contract, having a strike vote, or being released by the NMB to strike anyway, are such distant and unobtainable fairytales in your position. Also know that everyone including your USAPA leadership is aware that your DOH quest is coming to an end, as is your LOA93 grievance. (Here's another tissue...)

I'm sure you'll have one of your snide "ALPA shill" comments or useless link responses to this post, since factual information and common sense are not things you are capable of processing or responding to intelligently. Especially when those facts contradict the view according to Nos. All I can say is sit back and watch the professionals show you how it's done. Save this post and in a few months you can come back and tell me how I got it all wrong. I challenge you in fact to do so, because I don't spout info that I do not know is accurate, unlike you.

The REAL Messenger.

 

[767jetz]

Let me suggest that you cease and desist your childish display of over the top rhetoric which will never "prove" anything, least of all who has a bigger pair.

Pointing fingers and making unsubstantiated allegations about who was responsible or not, accomplishes nothing. One thing is for sure, in retrospect it's certainly understandable at least from a West pilots perspective, why it would raise some very realistic concerns about the possibility of being treated similarly.

This whole "guilt by association" thing is a total waste of time and bandwidth. Stop it and move on. Better yet, apologize

If you don't have anything even remotely constructive to add to the discussion and the effort to debate the very real issues dividing this pilot group TODAY, please don't bother.

seajay

So what ever happened to seajay? Nos, did you and your buddies send threatening PM's to him like you did to me and others?

Did you use peer pressure to squelch him because he didn't tote the USAPA line? Wasn't it you who cried "peer pressure" over the financial support of the west from the badgebackers?

Just wondering. It always seems that whenever an east pilot speaks out against the lynch mob here, it is only a matter of time before we hear very little from them all of a sudden. Happened a while back when an east supporter mentioned they were reconsidering their position. Poof! no where to be found again. Gotta hand it to you guys, you have quite a propaganda machine!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Now for the end game. There are 3 main sections remaining; work rules, pay, and scope.

And you started when? Last September? Three sections left as opposed to USAPA's 22!

 

[767jetz]

And you started when? Last September? Three sections left as opposed to USAPA's 22!

Just to clarify, 3 main sections. The rest is minor "nit-noid" stuff. But yes, much progress since it started. It is actually taking longer than we expected. But I laugh at guys like Nos who claim UA's progress is at a standstill when looking at USAPA's track record. That is truly pathetic!

 

[Freebird]

You've been on this same mantra now for what, a year now? Still hasn't happened and nobody is even remotely hinting at this possibility (the exact opposite really), except for the few posters on this board who can't come to grips with the reality of the NIC so they invent some outlandish scenario to show how the east will "win" even though they know the NIC will be upheld in the final analysis. How much time will have to pass for you to admit this was just a straw man that never had a basis in reality?

Leave Rainman alone. Judge Wapner is on.

USAPA = Not the Peoples Court.

 

[Freebird]

When you promise yourself to start the Atkins diet on 1 Jan, do you go to jail when you start the Southbeach diet instead? Internal union process. Binding ratification. Your turn.

In either case do you continue to lie to yourself that you're getting thinner? Do you constantly tell others that "It the calories in this meal that I chose, but definitely not my fault" is the reason you're not getting where you want to be? Or do you take responsibility for you decisions and agreements?

USAPA = Order's Up. Crap again. Enjoy.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just to clarify, 3 main sections. The rest is minor "nit-noid" stuff.

You see, USAPA is better because they've got all the "nit-nod" sections completed - after only 30 months at the bargaining table! Let's see, we've got missing, internment, prisoner of war completed. We've got jumpseating done. What am I missing? USAPA shills, help me out here. This is your chance to shine! Go team!

 

[sumadarson]

Times are tougher for some than others, particularly those on LOA93.

I asked my ALPA rep that very question today.

Was your alpa reps lips moving?

Show me the money.

Bottom line is you have nothing but the sunset provision, which will set at the end of the year. I will post the next ual pilot update on negotiations for you, stay tuned. It shows your reps are offering less progress than the west pilots army of iyingitas.