US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

The eventual result will be "new" hire captains on the E190, since that pay rate will not be affected by the LOA 93 decision and will be significantly less than Group 1 and 2, and 330.

While technically a captain slot, with the pay rate for the 190 it's more of a f/o job to me. If the LOA 93 grievance goes in favor of the East, those new hires would be better off in the right seat of the 737/A320 unless they've got an awful case of "captainitis", and not everyone is like CM.

If however, LOA 93 goes against the East the E190 slots will continue to be held by what would otherwise be junior 737/A320 FO's because it pays better and they could hold a line.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

If Kasher comes through with the money, the E190 captains will be bailing out in droves for 767 and 330 f/o positions....even Group 2 f/o positions.

The eventual result will be "new" hire captains on the E190, since that pay rate will not be affected by the LOA 93 decision and will be significantly less than Group 1 and 2, and 330.

If Kasher comes through! Why would he have to come through? If it is black and white it would be a slam dunk. Guess you understand that it was a long shot at best.

You guys may WANT to bail to the 767 or 330 positions but there have to be openings. That don't just appear because you want them.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If Kasher comes through with the money,

He didn't. Ask Clleary. He's known which way Kasher was going to rule for several weeks now. Just waiting on the opinion to make it a formality.

 

[nic4us]

Then please explain Freebird why 13 west pilots took recall to the East this year? Why not hold out for higher pay on the west? Maybe its because they will be Captains on the East in 5 years under separate operations. When would they make Captain on the west side? Under Nicolau? Guess what.....no where close to 5 years. You guys enjoy a STAGNANT Phoenix and we'll enjoy LOA 93 and our ATTRITION on the East. That's the way it's gonna be.


And yes Freebird......first year pay as an F/O on the 190 is the same as first year pay as an F/O on the A330. I think its the Phoenix sun that has baked your brain.

umm..a couple holes in your post.

First, West recalls to the east are not on first year pay.

Second, they retain their West rights, but I think had to commit to a min of 18 months.

Third, you ain't upgrading in 5 years on the east.

Fourth, under Nicolau, any west pilot from Odell and above is senior to furlough recalls such as yourself, so the first thing I would do if I were one of them is file a grievence over the company's failure to adhere to the TA's third list requirement, and bump some of you east folks down a notch.

Fifth, you are assuming PHX to be STAGNANT and that is a speculation, however, you will enjoy LOA93 that is a certainty.

 

[Freebird]

Then please explain Freebird why 13 west pilots took recall to the East this year? Why not hold out for higher pay on the west? Maybe its because they will be Captains on the East in 5 years under separate operations. When would they make Captain on the west side? Under Nicolau? Guess what.....no where close to 5 years. You guys enjoy a STAGNANT Phoenix and we'll enjoy LOA 93 and our ATTRITION on the East. That's the way it's gonna be.

Possibly because they needed a job? A job they already had before the merger. How long have you been back from furlough, Gunther?

Even making Captain pays less than most West F.O.s make. Glad you're enjoying your LOA93, keeping the industry down with your wages is nothing to be proud of. Someday you might make as much as a third year Southwest pilot, but I doubt it.

And yes Freebird......first year pay as an F/O on the 190 is the same as first year pay as an F/O on the A330. I think its the Phoenix sun that has baked your brain.

I know, thats why I was pointing out how pathetic your pay is. Newhire money doesnt go far on those Int'l overnights. Good job USAPA.



USAPA = Sucking hind teet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As much as facts get discarded here, I thought I'd throw out some. From the 2011 East seniority list the number of age 65 retirements for the next several years and the number of those that are on non-fliight status (supervisory, medical, already retired, etc)

2011 - 0 / 0
2012 - 7 / 3
2013 - 138 / 43
2014 - 198 / 58
2015 - 180 / 42
2016 - 226 / 55
2017 - 235 / 58
2018 - 257 / 51

Total = 1241 / 310

So probably about 900 retirements that leave an opening in the next 7 years (the number on medical will slowly go up until retirements start). That's about 40% of the East pilots on the seniority list in 2005 (the Nic list).

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

So probably about 900 retirements that leave an opening in the next 7 years

Of which a third will retire from the right seat. 600 captain openings.

 

[Phoenix]

He didn't. Ask Clleary. He's known which way Kasher was going to rule for several weeks now. Just waiting on the opinion to make it a formality.

Weeks? Even Ray Charles could look at the money involved and see the outcome from the beginning.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Of which a third will retire from the right seat. 600 captain openings.

I didn't look at that specifically, but just from putting a sortable list together from the company 2011 list and past permanent bid seniority lists there are some who only have a few years left and are pretty junior.

However, since I have the 2011 East list in sortable form, it would only take 5-10 minutes to add that info.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Weeks? Even Ray Charles could look at the money involved and see the outcome from the beginning.

Is this the beginning of the "we knew we would lose all along" chant?

Jim

 

[crazystnic]

As much as facts get discarded here, I thought I'd throw out some. From the 2011 East seniority list the number of age 65 retirements for the next several years and the number of those that are on non-fliight status (supervisory, medical, already retired, etc)

2011 - 0 / 0
2012 - 7 / 3
2013 - 138 / 43
2014 - 198 / 58
2015 - 180 / 42
2016 - 226 / 55
2017 - 235 / 58
2018 - 257 / 51

Total = 1241 / 310

So probably about 900 retirements that leave an opening in the next 7 years (the number on medical will slowly go up until retirements start). That's about 40% of the East pilots on the seniority list in 2005 (the Nic list).

Jim

***********************************
and your point is what? those are serious numbers... The most we have seen here in a long time and the medical out now is a big number. So will we have 1241 retirments - the 310 plus another 300 or 500 medicals for a total of 1341?

I think it's entirely possible.. and this is the crux of the problem with the NIC.

 

[crazystnic]

I wish I knew where this nonsense originates. Crew room banter is my guess. Just look at the lack of logic - it will be nearly 2 years before the first age 65 retirements, and expecting half the East list to retire in the next 3 years is absurd.

Fact: there are between 500 & 600 East pilots that will retire before 2017 because of reaching 65 (nearly 6 years from now). Fact: that includes supervisory, medical disability, leave of absence, and 1 or 2 already retired, so the active retirements would be significantly less.

Now tell me again how the bottom guys are going to be captains on the East in 5 years (remembering that there not enough E190 captain slots for all of the hires).

Jim

because there are a lot of guys that can hold captain curretnly that bid F/O.
so if a guy is 2800 now... he only needs to get to 2100 to be a capt..

wont be that long.

 

[Captain Underpants]

I wish I knew where this nonsense originates. Crew room banter is my guess. Just look at the lack of logic - it will be nearly 2 years before the first age 65 retirements, and expecting half the East list to retire in the next 3 years is absurd.

Fact: there are between 500 & 600 East pilots that will retire before 2017 because of reaching 65 (nearly 6 years from now). Fact: that includes supervisory, medical disability, leave of absence, and 1 or 2 already retired, so the active retirements would be significantly less.

Now tell me again how the bottom guys are going to be captains on the East in 5 years (remembering that there not enough E190 captain slots for all of the hires).

Jim

Jim,

From the latest bid the bottom DCA captain is #2233 out of 3415 total or around 35% up from the bottom not 50% as you suggest. The minimum East/West attrition ratio going forward is 4 to 1 based only on age 65 retirements. The actual East/West attrition ratio from 2005 until now has been around 10 to 1. There are many other variables which you simply ignore such as early attrition, additional medicals, productivity changes, training float etc. Widebody deliveries start again in 2013 and the airline could grow ASM's sometime in the net 5 years as well. Add them all up and it would at least double the age 65 only attrition numbers.

I would gladly place a bet that unless West pilots integrate to those East positions "3rd list" new hires will upgrade to captain within 5 years from today. On the other side the bottom furloughed West pilots are looking at up to 20+ year upgrades because many of their advancement variables have negative statistical correlations.

underpants

 

[Barrister]

Of which a third will retire from the right seat. 600 captain openings.

What you rocket scientists forget is that the NIC placed pilots who had much less LOS
and were MUCH YOUNGER above those out East who had way more LOS and were WAY OLDER
the NIC is DOA

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Freebird]

Jim,

From the latest bid the bottom DCA captain is #2233 out of 3415 total or around 35% up from the bottom not 50% as you suggest. The minimum East/West attrition ratio going forward is 4 to 1 based only on age 65 retirements. The actual East/West attrition ratio from 2005 until now has been around 10 to 1. There are many other variables which you simply ignore such as early attrition, additional medicals, productivity changes, training float etc. Widebody deliveries start again in 2013 and the airline could grow ASM's sometime in the net 5 years as well. Add them all up and it would at least double the age 65 only attrition numbers.

I would gladly place a bet that unless West pilots integrate to those East positions "3rd list" new hires will upgrade to captain within 5 years from today. On the other side the bottom furloughed West pilots are looking at up to 20+ year upgrades because many of their advancement variables have negative statistical correlations.

underpants

So your admiting that USAPA is harming the West. Your plan to stay seperate goes against your DOH mantra. Geniuses.


USAPA = We take care of our own, the East that is....