US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Yes....and in 3 to 4 years those formerly junior East pilot will be a junior East Captain while the formerly junior West pilot will still be a junior F/O. It's called attrition. It will probably take 4 years to get the last West F/O off of furlough unless they take recall to the East. Top housing markets in the nation are in Charlotte and Philadelphia. Worst housing markets in the nation are in Las Vegas and Phoenix. Don't believe me? Take a look here:

http://realestate.aol.com/blog/gallery/sacramento-ca/?icid=maing|main5|dl11|sec1_lnk3|51067

The other point you've made about the junior 190 positions on the east.....There are 82 f/o positions on the 190......2/3's of those are NEW HIRES....All but the bottom 1/3 could have bid off of the 190 on the last bid had they wanted to. As a NEW HIRE, the pay is the same whether you're on the 190 or the A330. All pilots that want off of the 190 will be able to get off of the 190 within their first year. The top 20 on the 190 bid it on purpose for the life style. So saying that USAPA is holding pilots down on 190 pay is incorrect. The 190 is a stepping stone for New Hires on the East. Would we like to raise the pay on it? Absolutely! But not at the expense of the rest of the pilot group.

So that is the best you got? You guys deserve DOH because of the housing market????? Guess you should have made that argument in 2007. Oh no wait the market was still good then. POST merger facts.

Charlotte, NC

Price Peak: $ 101.62 (June 2007)
End of Year Price: $ 86.93
Difference: - 14.5%

Even in Charlotte, the city that has seen the smallest decrease in home value since the housing boom, rebound is not a sure thing. Since the Queen City recorded its worst price in January 2009, home values have climbed 3.6% to $86.93 per square-foot. While a full-scale housing recovery may be months – or even years – away, buyers should nevertheless consider the perks of buying one of the hundreds of deeply discounted homes in their area.

 

[Ames]

DUDE, why don't you just tell us who you really are and why, out of the 11,000 UAL/CO pilots you are the
only one living here?????????????

NICDOA
NPJB

It really bothers you that pilots from other airlines get it.

 

[Freebird]

but if the FAA gets a couple thousand ASAP reports raising safety concerns in an east/west cockpit, it will be separate ops for a long time to come.

If your voter turnout is any indication of your participation in ASAP reporting, the FAA hasnt a thing to worry about.

USAPA = Keeping you down.

 

[Freebird]

Yes....and in 3 to 4 years those formerly junior East pilot will be a junior East Captain while the formerly junior West pilot will still be a junior F/O. It's called attrition.

I thought USAPA was all about DOH? Now you tout newhires going above West pilots. Which way is it? :wacko:

The other point you've made about the junior 190 positions on the east.....There are 82 f/o positions on the 190......2/3's of those are NEW HIRES....All but the bottom 1/3 could have bid off of the 190 on the last bid had they wanted to. As a NEW HIRE, the pay is the same whether you're on the 190 or the A330.

New hires are taking a paycut to fly on the East. Same wages on A330 as E-190? Good job USAPA :blink:


USAPA = Change the bongwater, its gettin' stanky

 

[Ames]

I think many of us can see the forest just fine. If and when USAPA decides to come off of DOH, there are a number of good reasons for the west to come off of the Nic. This would be no small thing for USAPA. There are many in the west who value a decent contract above a particular seniority number. They can read the numbers and they can see how many 60+ year olds are on our side. With a better contract, the number of departures on the east will accelerate. Your side can't benefit from that as long as we have separate operations.

I've already stated that USAPA needs to make the first move, but if your group doesn't recognize when the time comes that you need to move off of your position as well, whether collectively or individually (either way works), then you are as stupid as we have been.

Nic's 17:1 formula is not going to work. You can win every court case from here on, but if the FAA gets a couple thousand ASAP reports raising safety concerns in an east/west cockpit, it will be separate ops for a long time to come.

Ucrapa won't come off of DOH until the courts finally speak. If they do it will be only because they have no other choice. At that point the west has no reason to mitigate the Nicolau list. We would be stupid if we did. There aren't many on the west who value a decent contract over seniority. The few who do will be retiring in the next two years. Remember, our contract is pretty decent (with the exception of pay rates). Certainly superior to yours. I can live with my contract for the next 10 years. I cannot live with DOH and certainly refuse to negotiate down from a final and binding arbitration that was already preceded by negotiation. Go ahead and call me stupid. I can take it.

I am not surprised to see that they have reserved their final and desperate plan for the point where they realize that they will have to live with the arbitrated list. Yep. The safety card. The most unprofessional children of the pilot world will cry to the FAA because they didn't get their way. Pathetic. Truly, unbelievably, pathetic.

 

[GuntherA320]

So that is the best you got? You guys deserve DOH because of the housing market????? Guess you should have made that argument in 2007. Oh no wait the market was still good then. POST merger facts.

Glad you actually read the report!! Did you notice that in the entire nation Charlotte is the best!!! Down only 14.5% over the last 5 years! I notice you didn't quote what it had to say about Phoenix. (Down 56.6% and it probably hasn't hit bottom yet) For the rest of you, here it is:


Phoenix, AZ 2nd Worst Housing Market (Las Vegas is 1st)

Price Peak: $167.81 (June 2006)
End of Year Price: $ 72.90
Difference: -56.6%

Should the city with one of the highest rates of foreclosure in the nation live up to its mythical namesake, now is the time to rise from the ashes. The Valley of the Sun rose to new heights in June 2006 with a price per square-foot of $167.81 -- but its descent has mostly eclipsed its successes. At the end of 2010, homes in Phoenix commanded an average $72.90 per square-foot – a far cry from its housing boom days just four years prior. Like Vegas, Phoenix was also trending lower at the end of 2010, which could suggest that the market has yet to bottom out.


We may be on LOA 93, but our cost of living, lower taxes, and MUCH BETTER housing market more than makes up for it. I say, enjoy seperate ops. It is what it will be for some time to come. ( I bet all of this makes you wish you wish your reps would have offered a 7 year fence with the NIC at Wye river.) You would have swayed enough votes on the East with that to have had a contract, not lose ALPA, and have the NIC. But instead you were greedy.

 

[GuntherA320]

I thought USAPA was all about DOH? Now you tout newhires going above West pilots. Which way is it? :wacko:




New hires are taking a paycut to fly on the East. Same wages on A330 as E-190? Good job USAPA :blink:


USAPA = Change the bongwater, its gettin' stanky

Then please explain Freebird why 13 west pilots took recall to the East this year? Why not hold out for higher pay on the west? Maybe its because they will be Captains on the East in 5 years under separate operations. When would they make Captain on the west side? Under Nicolau? Guess what.....no where close to 5 years. You guys enjoy a STAGNANT Phoenix and we'll enjoy LOA 93 and our ATTRITION on the East. That's the way it's gonna be.


And yes Freebird......first year pay as an F/O on the 190 is the same as first year pay as an F/O on the A330. I think its the Phoenix sun that has baked your brain.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I am not surprised to see that the eastholes have reserved their final and desperate plan for the point where they realize that they will have to live with the arbitrated list. Yep. The safety card. The most unprofessional children of the pilot world will cry to the FAA because they didn't get their way. Pathetic. Truly, unbelievably, pathetic.

You're extrapolating, so let me back off. I have no idea how many, if any, east pilots would play the safety card. My point is that card has already been thrown down over the jumpseat issue. The FAA is well aware of our mutual animosity. You can pretend all you want that the two of us can get into the same cockpit tomorrow and conduct a perfectly safe operation utilizing the best CRM practices. Our passengers deserve better.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Then please explain Freebird why 13 west pilots took recall to the East this year? Why not hold out for higher pay on the west? Maybe its because they will be Captains on the East in 5 years under separate operations.

I wish I knew where this nonsense originates. Crew room banter is my guess. Just look at the lack of logic - it will be nearly 2 years before the first age 65 retirements, and expecting half the East list to retire in the next 3 years is absurd.

Fact: there are between 500 & 600 East pilots that will retire before 2017 because of reaching 65 (nearly 6 years from now). Fact: that includes supervisory, medical disability, leave of absence, and 1 or 2 already retired, so the active retirements would be significantly less.

Now tell me again how the bottom guys are going to be captains on the East in 5 years (remembering that there not enough E190 captain slots for all of the hires).

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Our passengers deserve better.

And if any professional pilot can't give them better, that pilot should resign. Anybody that can't tell the difference between the shouting match this forum has become and the cockpit of an airliner doesn't deserve his/her job.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

And if any professional pilot can't give them better, that pilot should resign. Anybody that can't tell the difference between the shouting match this forum has become and the cockpit of an airliner doesn't deserve his/her job.

Jim

As I posted, this shouting match has already bled into the cockpit jumpseat issue. And a professional pilot avoids pitfalls and hazards before he needs to negotiate them.

 

[exB717Flyer]

And a professional pilot avoids pitfalls and hazards before he needs to negotiate them.

Guess y'all should've avoided binding arbitration in the our seniority matter then.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I wish I knew where this nonsense originates. Crew room banter is my guess. Just look at the lack of logic - it will be nearly 2 years before the first age 65 retirements, and expecting half the East list to retire in the next 3 years is absurd.

Fact: there are between 500 & 600 East pilots that will retire before 2017 because of reaching 65 (nearly 6 years from now). Fact: that includes supervisory, medical disability, leave of absence, and 1 or 2 already retired, so the active retirements would be significantly less.

Now tell me again how the bottom guys are going to be captains on the East in 5 years (remembering that there not enough E190 captain slots for all of the hires).

Jim

If Kasher comes through with the money, the E190 captains will be bailing out in droves for 767 and 330 f/o positions....even Group 2 f/o positions.

The eventual result will be "new" hire captains on the E190, since that pay rate will not be affected by the LOA 93 decision and will be significantly less than Group 1 and 2, and 330.

 

[Metroyet]

If Kasher comes through with the money,

 

[Piedmont1984]

Guess y'all should've avoided binding arbitration in the our seniority matter then.

Well, that doesn't come under the auspices of cockpit safety. Nevertheless, you could say we've done a pretty effective job of circumnavigating that hazard as well - at least so far.