US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Ames]

And I have come to the conclusion that you are overall just not that bright. Here was your original line:

"Here is something more relevant to our situation. Nicolau told your side that you were not going to get DOH/LOS so you had better bring something else. That was the time to work out a deal. Not after."

He told BOTH sides they weren't getting what they wanted and they should BOTH bring something else. NEITHER side did(of substance), and it takes two to make an agreement. With an offer like yours, I can't see anything we could do that would make any difference and as I've said before, why did Nic ask then? He was the mediator, did he not know by then the two sides couldn't agree? If he was left to come up with a fair decisions, just do it. Wasn't the time for asking over by then?

Hey, Pi Nos, master of obfuscation. Read post 10555 yet again. The west side brought something to table (substantial or not) The east brought NOTHING. Yeah, I know, I'm not that bright - I get it. But I see through you like a wet t shirt.

 

[Ames]

Care to change your story. The facts are the west did bring something to the table. The east did not.

Clear, I think his biggest problem is that he thinks we're "not that bright". He thinks he can piss on our backs and convince us it's raining.

 

[Barrister]

I'm starting to like his material. Very well done. The best was a quote at the very end.

"We've learned to enjoy the view from our sidelines..., we will wait for the courts to render their decisions, and for the west to be returned their rights to fair representation, and a seniority list that was never yours to take."

That just about sums the whole thing up. The rest of the banter here is nothing but white noise. All the foot-stomping in the world will not change the course or the destination. Enjoy the ride.
[/quote

DUDE, why don't you just tell us who you really are and why, out of the 11,000 UAL/CO pilots you are the
only one living here?????????????

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

For the most part I think we have been at least as professional as our counterparts here, perhaps more. This is just thousands of pages of us making pointed legal and moral observations, and our counterparts replying with the same tired old arguments:
1. Is it fair that...
2. We changed unions, and the new union is under no obligation...
3. Trader, you're a traitor
4. Jim, what about this and what about that?
5. It just goes to show you that we can never fly safely together (Oh, BTW we are already doing that.)
6. You're a pilot for someone else, why are you posting here?
7. Delta/ NW is different.
8. Is it fair that.....(oh wait, I mentioned that already).
9. Other work groups go by DOH!
10. *%^((*%^*(((()*()!, MM!

Perhaps if you took a moment to read the pages and research the claims (as opposed to throwing it down on the ground and stomping on it), you might actually be able to digest the factual content.

We have read it....it puts a 17 year dues paying member junior to a 3 month new hire.....
we have no more questions!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

Yeah, right. Here is an example of your professionalism:

"Uhhhhh....East brought airplane returns, downgrades, 1500+ furloughed pilots, concessionary contract for themselves, etc. The east pilot group has won the lottery ticket with the merger and enjoyed the windfall created by the synergies. I'm with Cactus1.....oh to be early 2005 and have Doug Parker look again and just shake his head.

USAPA...........What can we steal from you today?"

Yes Sir! That statement really did a lot to help heal the wounds.


A few pages ago a west poster said that you guys didn't have to defend the Nic. That is not true, you have spent millions defending it. What you don't have to do is justify it. The west played by the rules and the Nic was the outcome. That really all you have to say and and IMHO where you should stop. When you go into the "you were failed and should be grateful to have a job", "job stealing", and assorted other B.S, you just make the divide bigger and are strengthening the resolve of some on the east to do everything they can to prevent the Nic from being implemented.

RIGHT ON THE MONEY.....have said numerous times you just want what NIC gave you....we happen to think
he got it very wrong......not blaming you Westies at all......but not taking a list that places ....well you know!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Freebird]

RIGHT ON THE MONEY.....have said numerous times you just want what NIC gave you....we happen to think
he got it very wrong......not blaming you Westies at all......but not taking a list that places ....well you know!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

And enjoying all the lush benefits of LOA93. Keeping your E-190 pilots on "pilot poverty" is the sign of a truly caring union.


USAPA = Low pay. Brought to you by our sponsor; AFO Club.

 

[767jetz]

DUDE, why don't you just tell us who you really are

Already did that. Did you miss the memo? Or is it selective comprehension? You not hearing, believing, or accepting my answer is nobody's problem but your own. Now get over yourself (DUDE).

"... we will wait for the courts to render their decisions, and for the west to be returned their rights to fair representation, and a seniority list that was never yours to take."

 

[767jetz]

We have read it....it puts a 17 year dues paying member junior to a 3 month new hire.....

Who cares? They both had the same position... JUNIOR RESERVE PILOT at the bottom of the list. Period.
So sorry that it took 17 years to get there at US Airways. (Another YP, by the way. - that would be Your Problem for the really dense.)

When are you going to get over this superiority complex that your junior pilot is somehow more important than any other junior pilot?

PS. Please learn how to use the quotation system properly. It would make your posts much more comprehendible.

 

[prechilill]

I was never furloughed from AWA. Got close but it never happened. Got anything else smart to say, Mr. Internet Message Board Tough Guy?

He will challenge you to a dogfight if you don't temper your emotions. These guys are really tough guys who never met a concession they didn't like!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Read post 10555 above. Proof that your side would not come off of their position. Now read the post I made that you refer to. I said that the west merger committee offered to discuss LOS during negotiations and the east MC refused. I DID NOT say anyone on the west was now willing to come off of Nic. Negotiations are long finished, arbitration is settled and the west has no reason in the world to EVER come off of their position, especially after all that your side has done.

I commended 1984 for seeing the forest for the trees, something you, evidently are unable to do.

I also recognize your pattern of misstating my words in hope that I would not correct you. Keep trying oh master of obfuscation. You're a gem.

I think many of us can see the forest just fine. If and when USAPA decides to come off of DOH, there are a number of good reasons for the west to come off of the Nic. This would be no small thing for USAPA. There are many in the west who value a decent contract above a particular seniority number. They can read the numbers and they can see how many 60+ year olds are on our side. With a better contract, the number of departures on the east will accelerate. Your side can't benefit from that as long as we have separate operations.

I've already stated that USAPA needs to make the first move, but if your group doesn't recognize when the time comes that you need to move off of your position as well, whether collectively or individually (either way works), then you are as stupid as we have been.

Nic's 17:1 formula is not going to work. You can win every court case from here on, but if the FAA gets a couple thousand ASAP reports raising safety concerns in an east/west cockpit, it will be separate ops for a long time to come.

 

[cleardirect]

Here comes another lost campaign. Aqua, do you really believe an east pilot is going to take the Nicolau, then try and unite with your group after he/she basically gives up any upward movement and pay, in order to battle the company? Seriously. Take an 84-85 hire, who is already in the breech for a widebody upgrade. Taking the Nic will put someone in the west 97 era hire ahead, and there goes the vacation, 767 pay, and on and on. Then you have a bunch of F/O s who are sliding into the widebodies and upgrades right now. Taking the Nic is assuring them of never hitting an upgrade, or widebody F/O that instantly puts them in a pay grade above any the west has. Why would they ever do that? It just makes NO SENSE. Also, the LOA 93 pay issue. If that thing goes three cherries, it is totally over.These two groups will never unite. Either way, the older East group is hitting that 63 mark as we speak. We will just wait for the retirements, medicals etc. They are coming home as we speak. Instead of trying to get some east guy to thank you as some of the dreamers on the board think should happen, take the time and ask some serious questions on how close they are to a widebody upgrade or captain upgrade. Maybe it will become clearer why you just wasted another stand of trees for nothing. Aside from the wasted paper, this is the second time the info one of your assistant chief pilots has given has hit the US Mail. Parker is going to have to answer why he is allowing this guy to keep using confidential company information. All East pilots are going to be donating very shortly for a lawsuit to get to the bottom of this thing.

Are there tear stains on your key board after this rant? You poor little kids. Not able to steal what you thought you could take.

Not able to upgrade or take those special few WB seats. The horror. Your own data said that the longest wait an east pilots would have to endure would be 2 years. Most of you have said that DOH is fair to the west because we should wait 10-12 years and then we get ours. Let me see 2 years compared to 12 years.

ALL EAST pilots are going to donate. Really! Once again if you had a case some law enforcement agency would take the case. So how many agencies laughed usapa out of their offices? Just a reminder. RICO! How did that turn out for you?

 

[cleardirect]

I think many of us can see the forest just fine. If and when USAPA decides to come off of DOH, there are a number of good reasons for the west to come off of the Nic. This would be no small thing for USAPA. There are many in the west who value a decent contract above a particular seniority number. They can read the numbers and they can see how many 60+ year olds are on our side. With a better contract, the number of departures on the east will accelerate. Your side can't benefit from that as long as we have separate operations.

I've already stated that USAPA needs to make the first move, but if your group doesn't recognize when the time comes that you need to move off of your position as well, whether collectively or individually (either way works), then you are as stupid as we have been.

Nic's 17:1 formula is not going to work. You can win every court case from here on, but if the FAA gets a couple thousand ASAP reports raising safety concerns in an east/west cockpit, it will be separate ops for a long time to come.

Well what is it? The west is going to have to come off of Nicolau or the courts are going to settle it?

With a better contract the attrition will accelerate????? If there is a better contract the old guys will stick around to capture the benefit not leave. As far as a better contract for the west. 90% of this contract goes to the east, there is nothing for the west in this next contract.

Why would the FAA get a couple thousand ASAP reports before we are flying together? Can you say ripe? Are there really a couple thousand unprofessional east pilots that would be unable to fly with west pilots? Did the FAA do anything at CAL or UAL when they had scabs flying with non-scabs?

BTW. Separate ops means separate contracts enjoy LOA 93 and what you have right now.

 

[GuntherA320]

Who cares? They both had the same position... JUNIOR RESERVE PILOT at the bottom of the list. Period.
So sorry that it took 17 years to get there at US Airways. (Another YP, by the way. - that would be Your Problem for the really dense.)

Yes....and in 3 to 4 years those formerly junior East pilot will be a junior East Captain while the formerly junior West pilot will still be a junior F/O. It's called attrition. It will probably take 4 years to get the last West F/O off of furlough unless they take recall to the East. Top housing markets in the nation are in Charlotte and Philadelphia. Worst housing markets in the nation are in Las Vegas and Phoenix. Don't believe me? Take a look here:

http://realestate.aol.com/blog/gallery/sacramento-ca/?icid=maing|main5|dl11|sec1_lnk3|51067

The other point you've made about the junior 190 positions on the east.....There are 82 f/o positions on the 190......2/3's of those are NEW HIRES....All but the bottom 1/3 could have bid off of the 190 on the last bid had they wanted to. As a NEW HIRE, the pay is the same whether you're on the 190 or the A330. All pilots that want off of the 190 will be able to get off of the 190 within their first year. The top 20 on the 190 bid it on purpose for the life style. So saying that USAPA is holding pilots down on 190 pay is incorrect. The 190 is a stepping stone for New Hires on the East. Would we like to raise the pay on it? Absolutely! But not at the expense of the rest of the pilot group.

 

[exB717Flyer]

If and when USAPA decides to come off of DOH, there are a number of good reasons for the west to come off of the Nic.

You forget one convenient fact: there is no West entity to negotiate with! Through Leonidas we will either sue for DFR or we won't. As long as USAPA is trying to shove a list on us using their tyranny of the majority you can bet on a suit. Don't forget the Addington case was decided by a unanimous jury in under two hours. Still feeling lucky?

Nic's 17:1 formula is not going to work.

If your opinion mattered the judge would've asked for it.

You can win every court case from here on, but if the FAA gets a couple thousand ASAP reports raising safety concerns in an east/west cockpit, it will be separate ops for a long time to come.

You still grasping at that straw? The company sees right through you and even the FAA ain't that stupid.
Plus, you'd only have to put lots of pilots on your no-fly list to avoid any problems. Ooops, I just remembered USAir is probably the only major carrier without the no-fly list option. Bummer.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well what is it? The west is going to have to come off of Nicolau or the courts are going to settle it?

Depends on your preferred timeline.

With a better contract the attrition will accelerate????? If there is a better contract the old guys will stick around to capture the benefit not leave. As far as a better contract for the west. 90% of this contract goes to the east, there is nothing for the west in this next contract.

Nobody wants to stay till 65, they have to. If the retirement benefits and sick language improve in a new contract, they will either retire or continue to work without leaving home ;-)

Why would the FAA get a couple thousand ASAP reports before we are flying together? Can you say ripe? Are there really a couple thousand unprofessional east pilots that would be unable to fly with west pilots? Did the FAA do anything at CAL or UAL when they had scabs flying with non-scabs?

Oh I don't know - maybe our mutual history of negative jumpseat experiences, ostensibly safety related, or three plus years of webboard rhetoric, etc. And there is no requirement for an ASAP report to be after the fact.