US Pilots Labor Discussion
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BoeingBoy
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There you have it. Claims not to favor DOH with it's C&R's or Nic but when the time to vote comes won't vote for a contract with the Nic, knowing that the only other choice may be USAPA's DOH with it's C&R's if the courts give any choice at all. Around and around he goes, where he stops nobody knows...
Jim
USA320Pilot
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USA320Pilot
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Leonidas Update: March 21, 2011
The long anticipated Third Issue of the Leonidas Brochure series is out. Issue III is 30 pages of facts spread among ten sections. We start with numerous quotes made by Cleary and Mowrey, which directly contradict everything they, USAPA, and USAPA's original founders have ever said about DOH. The next section covers blatant contradictions made by Lee Seham regarding the injustice suffered by the TWA pilots because they were denied the opportunity to arbitrate seniority.
The remaining eight sections cover:
- What the East representatives knew before entering the seniority arbitration.
- The US Airways Declaratory Action lawsuit.
- An analysis of USAPA's Date-of-Hire "Conditions and Restrictions”.
- Comparative charts showing the real history of the East and West pilot groups, as well as the thermometer charts comparing the Nicolau to DOH.
- Comparative salaries, including a chart that references all of the airlines that have received pay increases since 2008.
- Pay Parity and Retroactive Pay.
- The Kirby proposal from the West perspective.
- What USAPA has promised compared with what has been achieved.
- The realities of the Addington litigation.
- The need for unity, professionalism, and moving ahead together.
The brochures were mailed to the East Pilots last Friday. We should be getting the West copies Wednesday afternoon and we will begin distributing them immediately.
In closing, we wish to thank the vast majority of West pilots who contribute financially to this legal effort. It's because of your support that we can afford to assemble the facts of this East/West seniority dispute into the readable booklet that is Brochure III. We believe you will be as energized as we are when you read this latest publication.
Sincerely,
Leonidas LLC
The long anticipated Third Issue of the Leonidas Brochure series is out. Issue III is 30 pages of facts spread among ten sections. We start with numerous quotes made by Cleary and Mowrey, which directly contradict everything they, USAPA, and USAPA's original founders have ever said about DOH. The next section covers blatant contradictions made by Lee Seham regarding the injustice suffered by the TWA pilots because they were denied the opportunity to arbitrate seniority.
The remaining eight sections cover:
- What the East representatives knew before entering the seniority arbitration.
- The US Airways Declaratory Action lawsuit.
- An analysis of USAPA's Date-of-Hire "Conditions and Restrictions”.
- Comparative charts showing the real history of the East and West pilot groups, as well as the thermometer charts comparing the Nicolau to DOH.
- Comparative salaries, including a chart that references all of the airlines that have received pay increases since 2008.
- Pay Parity and Retroactive Pay.
- The Kirby proposal from the West perspective.
- What USAPA has promised compared with what has been achieved.
- The realities of the Addington litigation.
- The need for unity, professionalism, and moving ahead together.
The brochures were mailed to the East Pilots last Friday. We should be getting the West copies Wednesday afternoon and we will begin distributing them immediately.
In closing, we wish to thank the vast majority of West pilots who contribute financially to this legal effort. It's because of your support that we can afford to assemble the facts of this East/West seniority dispute into the readable booklet that is Brochure III. We believe you will be as energized as we are when you read this latest publication.
Sincerely,
Leonidas LLC
BoeingBoy
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Katz: "Well, I guess the first thing I
4 would like to do is respond to the submission that
5 we received electronically last night from the
6 America West pilots, and just say a word or two
7 about that."
How about West's new submission - wasn't that a changer, no matter how small, from their previous stance? What was Katz's response again???
Jim
Wrong again, but hey, when has that ever stopped you?
I've made it very clear that I don't think DOH is the only way to integrate a seniority list(it can be, it depends) and in this case I understand the west pilot's concerns. That doesn't mean I like the Nic or think he got it all right, and when the time comes to vote on a contract, I will weigh what is best for me, my family and my friends. I will not have the option of picking a seniority list to go with that contract, that will be decided for me. I will have no choice, as you claimed. If I had a choice, we wouldn't be here right now.
As of today I cannot see a contract the the company will accept that will make accepting the Nic worth is for me.
Is that clear to you? Stop twisting my words.
Is cleardirect your son? Of substance, what do you not get?
I can't wait to read this one! You westies make sure you read this section, as some of you seem to think it doesn't matter. Just like the east UHL's you throw rocks at.
BoeingBoy
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Here's what you said a few posts ago....
Sure you say that neither one is 100% fair, but we know how you'll vote if given the chance - you've never said that you would vote against a contract just because it had USAPA's DOH based list in it.
I think you've become a bitter argumentative young man. Quote your own words and you'll claim that words are being put in your mouth or deny saying it - anything to be obstinate. Maybe it's you that needs some time away from here....
Jim
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A320 Driver
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Just one more indicator of the foolishness of thinking that you could ever, safely integrate these two pilot groups regardless of what the courts say. I am more convinced with each passing day that we have reached a point of no return. Separate ops, selling this outfit off in pieces, or closing the doors are about the only options I see IMO.
Myself and others sought middle ground before things got out of hand but now I think it is too late. The Nic on one hand and DOH on the other left us with no future. Fight among yourselves all you like...you're just digging the hole deeper. The jumpseat issue alone should have been the warning sign that caused us to pause and reassess where we were. It didn't...
Driver B)
cactusboy53
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- May 9, 2007
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For the most part I think we have been at least as professional as our counterparts here, perhaps more. This is just thousands of pages of us making pointed legal and moral observations, and our counterparts replying with the same tired old arguments:
1. Is it fair that...
2. We changed unions, and the new union is under no obligation...
3. Trader, you're a traitor
4. Jim, what about this and what about that?
5. It just goes to show you that we can never fly safely together (Oh, BTW we are already doing that.)
6. You're a pilot for someone else, why are you posting here?
7. Delta/ NW is different.
8. Is it fair that.....(oh wait, I mentioned that already).
9. Other work groups go by DOH!
10. *%^((*%^*(((()*()!, MM!
Perhaps if you took a moment to read the pages and research the claims (as opposed to throwing it down on the ground and stomping on it), you might actually be able to digest the factual content.
On your mark, get set, ready....GO!
USAPA.........We'll have a meet and greet to tell you about plan B (after we have figured out what plan B is).
Yeah, right. Here is an example of your professionalism:
"Uhhhhh....East brought airplane returns, downgrades, 1500+ furloughed pilots, concessionary contract for themselves, etc. The east pilot group has won the lottery ticket with the merger and enjoyed the windfall created by the synergies. I'm with Cactus1.....oh to be early 2005 and have Doug Parker look again and just shake his head.
USAPA...........What can we steal from you today?"
Yes Sir! That statement really did a lot to help heal the wounds.
A few pages ago a west poster said that you guys didn't have to defend the Nic. That is not true, you have spent millions defending it. What you don't have to do is justify it. The west played by the rules and the Nic was the outcome. That really all you have to say and and IMHO where you should stop. When you go into the "you were failed and should be grateful to have a job", "job stealing", and assorted other B.S, you just make the divide bigger and are strengthening the resolve of some on the east to do everything they can to prevent the Nic from being implemented.
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