US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Oh, that's right. It's ok for you to exaggerate the West claims of how HP was doing to make fun of them, but no one else is allowed to exaggerate. Got it PI Nos... :blink: ...I forgot that you set the rules for everyone (except Easties)...

I'll get a note from the teacher next time...

Jim

Naw, just try pulling your head out of your rear. I have never stated that US was going gangbusters, as a matter of fact I have stated that I was preparing for the worst. I had a realistic view of what might happen, unlike many westies, even after they have been TOLD and SHOWN what was coming. You only support them to satisfy and old grudge. Admit it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Here is a reminder of the west's most generous offer from page 14(of my copy) of the Nicolau award. The America West proposal would have placed 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of the list, 959 of whom were active on May 19, 2005. Notice the line where it says "America West's position was not substantially modified".

There you have it - proof that Nic chose a middle, fair decision....

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

I bet if the award was a little (and a mean a little) more sided for LOS you would have agreed to it and disliked it, we would have agreed to it and disliked it, and and we would be working as one group trying to bring to this property an industry standard contract.

Since you're not a common poster here I'm going to give you just a little benefit of the doubt and not give your post the full attack it deserves. Instead I shall restate the obvious: we ended up in arbitration because we couldn't come to an agreement on seniority. One of the risks of arbitration is not liking the result. Maybe even hating it. Despite perjurious testimony to the contrary both sides entered into arbitration expecting to abide by the results, come what may. Your side is not only doing everything possible to avoid what you agreed to but it's trying to impose a list beneficial to the East. What the East is doing is wrong and no rationalizing can change that. (Hint: saying an arbitrator didn't follow the rules when in fact the arbitrator gets to make the rules is specious.)

The West has the moral high ground in this dispute and if justice is served we'll win the legal battle as well. Of course, the East can end this dispute in a heartbeat: drop the attack on our seniority and we can move on. It's your move...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Naw, just try pulling your head out of your rear. I have never stated that US was going gangbusters, as a matter of fact I have stated that I was preparing for the worst. I had a realistic view of what might happen, unlike many westies, even after they have been TOLD and SHOWN what was coming. You only support them to satisfy and old grudge. Admit it.

Wow, such advice from one who is so one-sided "I can do that but you can't" ...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Well then, you have clearly stated the risk you and Leonidas are willing to take. Your choice. If by chance the East pilots win the LOA 93 Grievance with regard to pay restoration, you will have absolutely lost any chance of ever getting the Nicolau, and perhaps even another contract for a long period of time. Believe me, that pamphlet did nothing for your cause. By the way, I didn't see an AFL-CIO label on it. Did you have it printed in China?

I have no idea where the pamphlet was printed, who printed it, how they got your address. As a matter of fact, I just learned about it from this web board, and am anxious to see one.

Let me give you a little insight about the LOA93 grievence. I have been watching crew news videos longer than you and I have worked for LCC. Only twice have I seen Parker visibly upset about what he is discussing. First time was when Cleary accused him of furloughing as a negotiating tactic, (he looked like he was going to come out of his shoes, luckily the next question came from the distinguished east gentleman who called Cleary out, and made him look like an idiot). The second time was during a discussion of the LOA93 arbitration. I am telling you this thing pisses him off (and that is not an easy thing to do), and if by some miracle usapa wins it, that is the end of usapa. So, good luck, hope you win!!!

PS. you ain't getting retro parity either.

 

[Pi brat]

Admitting to truth isn’t difficult at all. I will admit that there is no reason to doubt that there was a Project Zanzibar just as Kirby is attributed to have said. There was also almost certainly a similar endeavor formed on 9/12/2001 (if not before). No company or CEO just decides out of the blue to file for bankruptcy protection. A solid Management team will bifurcate their efforts when financial trouble is on the horizon. One effort would be launched to save the company a trip into bankruptcy court by slashing expenses, negotiating with suppliers and employee groups and making operational adjustments to try and regain a financial foothold without court protection. The other endeavor would be to prepare all of the documents required for the bankruptcy filing. Just because bankruptcy documents are prepared, doesn’t mean they must be filed. In this case, clearly they weren’t just as HP didn’t file after 9/11, but you can bet that they had plans in place to file should “plan A” fail.

What HP’s options were outside of joining with another carrier and/or outside of bankruptcy court is speculative at best. Whatever options may have been discussed, acquiring US Airways out of bankruptcy was obviously deemed to be the best option for HP as determined by Management, the BOD, and ultimately the shareholders. These facts (or best guesses) don’t change the facts of the HP/US merger or the Nicolau arbitration award in any way. Absent the merger where would US Airways have been on 10/1/2005? Liquidation was either inevitable or at least the most probable result if HP had abandoned the merger discussions. So, Nicolau was unquestionably correct that US was in worse financial condition than HP on 9/27/2005.

Besides all that, what would his list have looked like if he “felt” that HP and US were financially in equivalent situations? Would he have violated the joint statement on merger principles that said no furloughed pilot would displace an active pilot? Would he have changed his protection of the top 517 east WB positions? Would he have used a different ratio methodology to achieve a combined list? We can guess all day, but the reality is that Nicolau combined the two lists according to ALPA policy and the requirements contained in the TA all while following a fairly predictable ratio of 2 east pilots to 1 west pilot given the size of each groups’ active list.
Nevertheless, if anyone thinks Nicolau got it wrong, feel free to file a legal action against the award to get it overturned. If it didn’t meet the criteria, then why not just have that award fixed or vacated rather than forming a new union and risking a DFR with an attempt to ignore the arbitration award as though it didn’t happen?

Okay, there you have it. Any other facts you want a west supporter to admit to? I’m game, so long as they are facts rather than something pulled out of thin air.

That is a well thought out and worded post. I'm not looking for any other "facts" other than it is clear that AWA was not taking the world by storm and that the CEO has stated, many times, that you future was bleak as it stood on May 18 2005. I'm tired of hearing guys run their mouths about stuff they know nothing about.

I don't know that Nic would have changed the list one bit if he changed the financial condition of each company equation. He talks about both sides versions being a little off. It is the AWA pilots that hold themselves as high and mighty and we "saved you" that gets to me. I seriously doubt Doug asked any pilot's permission to do the merger.

No east pilot has stolen a west pilots job as of today. If a west pilot wants to claim that is the intent of SOME east pilots, that's fine, but it's not mine or most of my co-workers.

 

[Pi brat]

Wow, such advice from one who is so one-sided "I can do that but you can't" ...

Jim

I'm not one sided.
-I supported and fought USAPA leaders over the C18
-I have said that I don't think that as it currently stands DOH with C&Rs is fair to the west, and that I can't think of C&Rs that would make it so.
-I have said I hoped PHX grew and the C/Os that got bumped get their seats back and the furloughed pilots get back.


Just a few.

How about you Mr. "I can never pass up a chance to stick the guys that watched my rear for all those years in the back"? When was the last positive thing you said about an eastie?

 

[nic4us]

Maybe it will become clearer why you just wasted another stand of trees for nothing. Aside from the wasted paper, this is the second time the info one of your assistant chief pilots has given has hit the US Mail.

Parker is going to have to answer why he is allowing this guy to keep using confidential company information. All East pilots are going to be donating very shortly for a lawsuit to get to the bottom of this thing.

Hey genius, got a question for you, are usapa officers privy to usapa members home addresses? um...I would think they are....how else would usapa accomplish a mailing?

How do you know it was an assistant chief pilot? That is a pretty direct accusation.

Make sure to use usapa funds to start your lawsuit.

 

[FL430]

Well, I suspect that nearly every male West employee is someone's nephew so why do I get the feeling you're bringing up Nos' lie?



Ah, but what were those details about the then current HP position? I can tell you I watch the lotto drawing every week but that doesn't tell you if I won or lost, or even bought a ticket.

You can take Parker/Kirby at their word as given contemporaneously - in 2005 HP was looking at possible liquidity problems, in 2007/8 they would have been filing for bankruptcy, in 2009/10 they would have possibly folded - and take that as what the future held for HP as economic conditions changed or ignore everything they say. You don't get to take something said in 2011 and make that a definite part of the picture in 2005. Just as pilot expectations change due to factors out of their control, so do a company's prospects change due to economic factors.

In other words, in 2005 US' prospects without the merger were much worse than HP's and it's 2005 that the arbitrator looked at. Everything after that is post-merger and should affect the pilots from each pre-merger carrier equally. Unfortunately for the West, the East has gotten most of the post-merger good while they've been stuck with most of the post-merger bad. You and most of the other Easties are happy with that and now want those post-merger gains to continue on the backs of the West, with the excuse that they'll "inherit the airline" in X years. However, as your post shows, a relative few years can make the prospects for any company including airlines vary drastically from projections made a few years prior so by the time West "inherits" the airline it may be an airline that looks a lot like US in BK2. So you want to get yours quickly while it's there and leave the West to deal with whatever the future holds.Jim

And Jim that sounds exactly like what you did to the new hire pilots in the mid eighties when you voted in the "B" scale contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is a reminder of the west's most generous offer from page 14(of my copy) of the Nicolau award. The America West proposal would have placed 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of the list, 959 of whom were active on May 19, 2005. Notice the line where it says "America West's position was not substantially modified".

I have come to the conclusion that the east posters here have a terrible reading comprehension problem. Either that or blind to all of the words in the sentence.

Like that of US Airways, America West's position was not substantially modified during the proceedings.

I guess you failed to read the entire quote. you see the AWA pilots did submit changes. The east pilots not so much.

we are comfortable with our 22 proposal as it is.

3 MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
4 would like to do is respond to the submission that
5 we received electronically last night from the
6 America West pilots, and just say a word or two
7 about that. Number one --
8 CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
9 backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
10 way.
11 MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
12 a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
13 we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
14 respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
15 And if it makes more sense logically to start from
16 that I am happy to do that.
17 We have considered fully the observations
18 of the panel with regard to both side's proposals.
19 We have given careful study to the issue. We have
20 consulted with MEC and the advisors and done quite a
21 bit of analysis, and we are comfortable with our
22 proposal as it is.

 

[exB717Flyer]

As the Easties are now receiving their Leonidas updates let's recall all the tough talk after the last mailing: Complaints to the USPS, chief pilots, DOL, DOJ, NASA, AOPA, and many lawsuits. The result: another Army of Leonidas mailing. Boy are they scared of the Easties.

ps. Did I ever mention how y'all could've had a raise in 2007 but instead walked out of joint negotiations? You'll get your pay parity when you've earned it.

 

[Pi brat]

I have come to the conclusion that the east posters here have a terrible reading comprehension problem. Either that or blind to all of the words in the sentence.

And I have come to the conclusion that you are overall just not that bright. Here was your original line:

"Here is something more relevant to our situation. Nicolau told your side that you were not going to get DOH/LOS so you had better bring something else. That was the time to work out a deal. Not after."

He told BOTH sides they weren't getting what they wanted and they should BOTH bring something else. NEITHER side did(of substance), and it takes two to make an agreement. With an offer like yours, I can't see anything we could do that would make any difference and as I've said before, why did Nic ask then? He was the mediator, did he not know by then the two sides couldn't agree? If he was left to come up with a fair decisions, just do it. Wasn't the time for asking over by then?

I guess you don't know the meaning of substantial.

You have repeatedly made the comment that the east didn't compromise. I was just pointing out that the west didn't either. It's all right there in the beloved Nic award.

 

[Pi brat]

ps. Did I ever mention how y'all could've had a raise in 2007 but instead walked out of joint negotiations? You'll get your pay parity when you've earned it.

How do you know that? How do you know that with all the anger over the Nic, that even if we had stayed in joint neg., and stayed in ALPA, that a joint contract would have passed in 2007?

I can't envision a contract that the company will EVER offer that will make me vote for a contract with the Nic in it. Maybe in 5- 10 more years. We'll see, as I never say never anymore.

 

[cleardirect]

And I have come to the conclusion that you are overall just not that bright. Here was your original line:

"Here is something more relevant to our situation. Nicolau told your side that you were not going to get DOH/LOS so you had better bring something else. That was the time to work out a deal. Not after."

I guess you don't know the meaning of substantial.

He told BOTH sides they weren't getting what they wanted and they should BOTH bring something else. NEITHER side did, and it takes two to make an agreement. With an offer like yours, I can't see anything we could do that would make any difference and as I've said before, why did Nic ask then? He was the mediator, did he know by then the two sides couldn't agree? If he was left to come up with a fair decisions, just do it.

You have repeatedly made the comment that the east didn't compromise. I was just pointing out that the west didn't either. It's all right there in the beloved Nic award.

3 MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
4 would like to do is respond to the submission that
5 we received electronically last night from the
6 America West pilots,

MR. KATZ: We have
20 consulted with MEC and the advisors and done quite a
21 bit of analysis, and we are comfortable with our
22 proposal as it is.

Care to change your story. The facts are the west did bring something to the table. The east did not.

 

[Pi brat]

Care to change your story. The facts are the west did bring something to the table. The east did not.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/substantial

Page 14. Says St. Nic.

I did add the line of substance.

How about you, care to change the tone and assertion of your post?