US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

I really don't think your definition of hurt, with regard to an 88 hire on is even close.........

You are right, if the west would come off the Nic, there might be some room to negotiate.

Did you mean to say with regard to an 88 hire furloughee who was unable to steal a West pilots position?

The West cannot come off the Nic. I actually think the company thought that by filling their DJ that they could give the West class legal status to renegotiate, however, even if that were the case there will be no further negotiations of the system seniority list. The AOL principles and legal team are not about to cut a deal with usapa. It is the Nic, end of story.

Further, usapa is both unwilling to modify its position, because it is in their C&BLs, and nobody trust usapa enough to entertain the idea of negotiating with them.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are the one slanting.

Oh, me bad for not saying which revenue counts and which doesn't... :blink:

Jim

 

[Ames]

I think a fuse just blew

Yeah, o'l Pi Brat is losing it! I think reality is starting to set in.

 

[traderjake]

My thanks to the fine men from AOL for that beautitful pamphlet that I just got in the mail, must a cost a lot. Keep those donations coming in.

They make more than we do, they can afford it.

Your side has to settle for stickers and sharpies.

 

[Black Swan]

Did you mean to say with regard to an 88 hire furloughee who was unable to steal a West pilots position?

The West cannot come off the Nic. I actually think the company thought that by filling their DJ that they could give the West class legal status to renegotiate, however, even if that were the case there will be no further negotiations of the system seniority list. The AOL principles and legal team are not about to cut a deal with usapa. It is the Nic, end of story.

Further, usapa is both unwilling to modify its position, because it is in their C&BLs, and nobody trust usapa enough to entertain the idea of negotiating with them.

Well then, you have clearly stated the risk you and Leonidas are willing to take. Your choice. If by chance the East pilots win the LOA 93 Grievance with regard to pay restoration, you will have absolutely lost any chance of ever getting the Nicolau, and perhaps even another contract for a long period of time. Believe me, that pamphlet did nothing for your cause. By the way, I didn't see an AFL-CIO label on it. Did you have it printed in China?

 

[Pi brat]

I think a fuse just blew

I don't know if you are talking to me or not sweetheart, but all fuses intact here. Whether east or west, if I see a post aimed at me that is B.S I will call it, just like I did with yours and Ames'

 

[Pi brat]

Oh, me bad for not saying which revenue counts and which doesn't... :blink:

Jim

Damn right you bad. You know what I mean and AWA was not the picture of financial health and prosperity that some west posters would like it to be. You just argue their side to help your 20+ year old grudge. Sad.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah, o'l Pi Brat is losing it! I think reality is starting to set in.

Yeah, the reality that you are not taking my seat any time soon.

 

[cleardirect]

Jim,

I'm sure Doug "The Closer" can tell you all about this Memo and possibly provide you with an original copy, if you don't know who he is, maybe someone's nephew can help you get in touch with him.

The Swan


Merger Mania July 22 2005

Pieces of the Puzzle

Capt. Ken Stravers, Chairman, MEC Merger Committee

Last Friday, July 15, your MEC and chairmen of the Merger, Negotiating, and Communications Committees met with Doug Parker, Jeff McClelland, Dave Seymour, and Shirley Kaufmann from America West management. DougParker opened the meeting with an hour-and-15- minute presentation. He provided us financial data concerning our current company position, as well as future projections for the merger of both companies. These cost savings, or synergies, are predicated on this deal being handled in an expeditious manner. Your MEC followed this presentation with an hour and 45 minutes of questions concerning merger, operations, and management style with the new company. Nondisclosure agreements signed by all in attendance preclude us from releasing any details at this time. However, as we receive additional information that we have requested from the company, we’ll form a well-educated decision about the implications of this merger for AWA pilots.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________


I think the pressures and risks are all on your side of the transaction, not the US Airways side. Here are my thoughts.

The judge who has been sheparding US Airways along for the last three years and two bankruptcies will not let it collapse.

Second, I believe that the company can operate without a transition agreement, but you can’t. You have scope protections, but keep in mind that the new company will be US Airways and will be flying under its certificate. While the two companies remain separate, there will be little to restrict the company from shifting flying from AWA to AAA or from allowing all the new flying to AAA without a transition agreement keeping flying separate.



Memo from West Merger Attorney Jeffrey Freund to the AWA ( JRB, JMac & KS ) August 2005.


I’ve been thinking about the status of the Transition agreement and its implications for seniority integration and I wanted to pass these thoughts on to you before the MEC decides how to proceed. I believe that it is very important that you finalize an agreement and do it soon. I think the pressures and risks are all on your side of the transaction, not the US Airways side. Here are my thoughts.

First, whatever you may think about the transaction, I believe that it will be approved and approved promptly. The judge who has been sheparding US Airways along for the last three years and two bankruptcies will not let it collapse. In any event, it will not be ALPA’s objection (assuming you don’t reach a transition agreement and ALPA files an objection) that will kill it. So you should assume it will promptly be approved.

Second, I believe that the company can operate without a transition agreement, but you can’t. You have scope protections, but keep in mind that the new company will be US Airways and will be flying under its certificate. While the two companies remain separate, there will be little to restrict the company from shifting flying from AWA to AAA or from allowing all the new flying to AAA without a transition agreement keeping flying separate.

Third, the implications of that fact to seniority integration are not good. If flying tips to AAA during the transition period, even if we get a “good” integration, AAA pilots will be in seats and a “no bump/no flush” provision will keep them there until a system bid allows seniority to operate unrestricted. That is not a good result for AWA pilots.

Fourth, in an event, as I have explained, to the extent your objections are to the absence of a no furlough clause, I don’t think you will ever get one and I don’t think you want one. You should want AAA pilots furloughed…

Finally, while I know you are trying to capture some additional economics, in these negotiations, this is not the time to draw the line on those issues. You will have other points of leverage during subsequent negotiations to press for those items. I’m not suggesting that you abandon your attempts immediately, just don’t get yourselves in a negotiating position where the deal craters over those issues. In short, I think you should not come out of the next round with the company without a deal.

Dan Atkins and I are intending to be at the meeting by conference call on Wednesday. Please let us know how and when we should do that.

Do you own a calender? What date was this written? What date did the Nicolau award issue?

We did sign a T/A so this irrelevant memo has nothing to do with anything.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is something more relevant to our situation. Nicolau told your side that you were not going to get DOH/LOS so you had better bring something else. That was the time to work out a deal. Not after.

CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: Yes. The last time we
10 met, in a somewhat smaller room, where even if it
11 was smaller we were trying to figure out a way how
12 to negotiate a treaty in this room, and this room I
13 guess is perfect for it.
14 The board asked both sides to reflect and
15 to consider what we have said and to come back to
16 discuss any revised positions that they had, that
17 they intended to make, and to present. We already
18 have a document from the America West pilots.
19 We would like to hear first, this morning,
20 from the US Air pilots as to what their response is
21 and then anything that America West wants to add,
22 and then we are going to take it from there.
3040
1 So Dan, how do you want to proceed in that
2 regard?
3 MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
4 would like to do is respond to the submission that
5 we received electronically last night from the
6 America West pilots, and just say a word or two
7 about that. Number one --
8 CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
9 backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
10 way.
11 MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
12 a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
13 we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
14 respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
15 And if it makes more sense logically to start from
16 that I am happy to do that.
17 We have considered fully the observations
18 of the panel with regard to both side's proposals.
19 We have given careful study to the issue. We have
20 consulted with MEC and the advisors and done quite a
21 bit of analysis, and we are comfortable with our
22 proposal as it is.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Damn right you bad. You know what I mean and AWA was not the picture of financial health and prosperity that some west posters would like it to be. You just argue their side to help your 20+ year old grudge. Sad.

Absolutely - HP was the walking dead and was going to go straight to liquidation on Sept 28, 2005 if the merger hadn't happened. US was rolling in profits and destined to become the biggest airline ever known to man if the HP anchor hadn't attached itself...

That fit with what you want PI Nos...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

A most excellent post! You are the one and only east pilot I have come across that makes sense. One thing you should know is that the west merger committee offered discussion on LOS but was shut down by the east. It was DOH or nothing. Read the transcripts. Nicolau told the east merger committee that their DOH demand would not fly and even gave them a last chance to negotiate. They would not.

How is that it was supposedly DOH or nothing when the final offer was LOS?

From page 8 of the Nicolau award:

“ The US Airways initial proposal was grounded on a pilot’s Date of Hire adjusted for Length of Service.”


What do you think 1984's theory that if USAPA would come off DOH towards LOS, some on the west would join in? I have never heard that from a SINGLE WEST PILOT.

 

[Pi brat]

Absolutely - HP was the walking dead and was going to go straight to liquidation on Sept 28, 2005 if the merger hadn't happened. US was rolling in profits and destined to become the biggest airline ever known to man if the HP anchor hadn't attached itself...

That fit with what you want PI Nos...

Jim

Proof you xxxxxxx. Where did I say that?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Proof you xxxxxxx. Where did I say that?

Oh, that's right. It's ok for you to exaggerate the West claims of how HP was doing to make fun of them, but no one else is allowed to exaggerate. Got it PI Nos... :blink: ...I forgot that you set the rules for everyone (except Easties)...

I'll get a note from the teacher next time...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Here is something more relevant to our situation. Nicolau told your side that you were not going to get DOH/LOS so you had better bring something else. That was the time to work out a deal. Not after.

Here is a reminder of the west's most generous offer from page 14(of my copy) of the Nicolau award. The America West proposal would have placed 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of the list, 959 of whom were active on May 19, 2005. Notice the line where it says "America West's position was not substantially modified".