US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

They will get my vote.

 

[CactusPilot1]

THE FOUNDATION OF THE ASSOCIATION EXPOSED (The Bradford Letter)

The following text reveals the context of the legal opinion from respected labor attorney Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan. Mr. Katzenbach’s firm was interviewed in May 2007 in the early stages of Mr. Bradford’s expedition to form a new organization, an organization with the singular goal of destroying the careers of the former America West pilots. Although the letter was marked confidential, in the fanaticism to gain support of the East pilots, this material was published on a public Web site thus piercing the normally ironclad veil of attorney/client privilege. As a result of this all too common recklessness and oversight within USAPA’s founding leadership, this letter was admitted into evidence and became an important component of the Addington trial and subsequent verdict. In the discussion, Mr. Katzenbach warned Mr. Bradford by stating,
...the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress [t]he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award. Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud

With that introduction, here is the entire discussion:

A Conversation with an Attorney

KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach feels that a direct assault on this award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.
Chris said the contract was truly piece of "####" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award. Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act /

NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie. This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

Respectfully Submitted,
an aaapilots4fairness committee member

 

[CactusPilot1]

THE FOUNDATION OF THE ASSOCIATION EXPOSED (The Bradford Letter)

Key Points.....

[/b]Chris Katzenbach feels that a direct assault on this award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award. "Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said:

However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award. Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

 

[Phoenix]

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers.

Losers.

Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area ... I will .. supply a resume of their qualifications... and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed .. so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

Imagine that. We don't do business with the ones that knew DFR suits are losers. Obviously, it was decided that Katzenbach and Khitikan were of no necessity since there was no interest in trying to do an end run on the Nic.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Losers.



Imagine that. We don't do business with the ones that knew DFR suits are losers. Obviously, it was decided that Katzenbach and Khitikan were of no necessity since there was no interest in trying to do an end run on the Nic.

I've already seen Usapian long faces after a jury handed you "losers" a GUILTY verdict.

We are going to drag you "losers" back into court again and show you the pain the term "ripe" can inflict. <_<

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Alpo, teamsters, or usapa. So many class A outfits. How to choose, how to choose. Seriously, though, any one of them would work, if we had our act together.

 

[Freighterguynow]

During our down-turn in the economy 140 pilots in PHX that had jobs before the merger were FURLOUGHED. .

AWA (in May 2005) had no failed career expectations.

Well in 2011 those career expectations have nose dived for AWA. Your America West system does not work with oil over $60 - this is why you fly 24% of your block hours on East routes.

If our flying wasn't being bled off to artificially inflate your pilot group TA block hours you would (and rightly should) have 400+ furloughs right now.

 

[AvgJoe]

Keep your powder dry there Capt. Integrity. Many of you have espoused that ALPA National is responsible for your collective woes. YOU stated the following: We still work under LOA 93, subsidizing the west and high fuel costs.

Doug Parker told your group (when asking for pay parity) that the only way you would see a raise was via a joint contract.

While your may personally "keep your word" in your own personal every day dealings, your collective pilot group REFUSES to accept the product of our merged pilot seniority list process. YOUR collective pilot group by direct action (or in-actiion) are responsible for voting out ALPA with a new independent union. That UNION and its legal team has promised your group that a seniority list by date of hire is a slam dunk. That UNION and its legal team wasted NO TIME in trying to "take hostages" with the Cactus18 play (you remember, that was the case that was DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE X 2).

I was born in the 50's and was brought up with what I believe to be good moral character. These events have truly tested my Christian up-bringing. It bothers me that not one, but nearly and entire group of 3500+ pilots are freely willing do this. The hubris and unmitigated gall that we see from USAPA supporters here is beyond comprehension.

Not angry, just very disappointed in the actions (or in-action) of your collective group. I expect better of adult human beings.
I and 1700+ of my closest friends are determined. We will not lay down. We will not be bullied. We will not allow you to recover your career with our assets. We are funded and supported by many others in the aviation community.

We agreed to ALPA merger policy, of which arbitration was a part, and believe it was not followed. I know you disagree, and the point has been beaten to death on the board. Waxing holier-than-thou is neither appropriate nor productive.

 

[cleardirect]

Well in 2011 those career expectations have nose dived for AWA. Your America West system does not work with oil over $60 - this is why you fly 24% of your block hours on East routes.

If our flying wasn't being bled off to artificially inflate your pilot group TA block hours you would (and rightly should) have 400+ furloughs right now.

And the east should have 100% furloughs. But neither one happened. Get over it.

 

[cleardirect]

My prediction is that USAPA will merge to the IBT.

I think you are right. That is the only option left for the guys that went all in and backed themselves into a corner.

I am going to be very interested in how Cleary et al, explain this. For 3 years usapa and blind followers have been trying unsuccessfully to convince us that usapa was not created to get out of binding arbitration. But because a national organization had screwed them. That a national organization had a conflict of interest and they wanted self-determination and rule. That sending money to a national organization was wasting money and a local independent union could keep all of the money and actually reduce the dues and save money by doing it cheaper. (that did not happen)

Now after 3 years of failure and not achieving anything. What do they do? They want to go running to a national union to bail them out. Will these jokers admit they were wrong? NEVER!! They will blame the west. They will blame the east pilots that did not support Cleary. They will say they never said those things.

Cleary is up there kissing IBT butt every chance he gets. Bet he is hoping for some national job so he does not have to face the east pilots as a failure. He can just slink away.

But nothing is going to happen until the courts finish the seniority or the east accepts their agreement.

 

[CactusPilot1]

We agreed to ALPA merger policy, of which arbitration was a part, and believe it was not followed. I know you disagree, and the point has been beaten to death on the board. Waxing holier-than-thou is neither appropriate nor productive.

You obviously miss the big picture. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Westies were trying to cheat a process then your side would feel slighted and you would be beating this issue to death.

 

[prechilill]

You obviously miss the big picture. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Westies were trying to cheat a process then your side would feel slighted and you would be beating this issue to death.

It's a convenient (albeit stupid and baseless) argument for a few who want to play "pin the blame" game. They offer no proof of anything and Nos is the undisputed king with this tactic- throw a baseless accusation out there like "alpa merger policy wasn't followed" and whistle dixie when asked for substantive facts. Don't like reality, just make up a reason for breaking the law, ethics, etc. Remember, we are not exactly dealing with professionals around here.

 

[nic4us]

If our flying wasn't being bled off to artificially inflate your pilot group TA block hours you would (and rightly should) have 400+ furloughs right now.

"Artificially inflate"?? What are you talking about usapa supporting job theif? Nobody is bleeding off your flying, all the flying done by West crews is West flying.

The lesson you should learn is that you do not get to pick and chose which parts of contracts you have to honor, and which parts you are going to renege on.

You want to enforce the TA and maintain seperate ops to renege on the Nic, that means min block hours and LOA93 for the east. I know that throws cold water on your plans to steal West jobs, so why don't you try and get out of that LOA93 part...oh wait....the weasels are trying desperately to get out of LOA93.

 

[Freighterguynow]

But nothing is going to happen until the courts finish the seniority or the east accepts their agreement.

Our agreement is membership ratification. Perhaps someday you will get past your collective disconnect on this subject and accept the Nic will not be ratified by the East not matter what a court might say.

In the end AOL will deliver nothing but failure.

The West brings nothing to the table - PHX is a loser. No potential merger partner needs a hub there. The inefficiencies in siphoning off East flying to prop up the failing West system cannot go on forever and when it ends 400 jobs will be brought back East where they belong.

The West is nothing but a liability and every East pilot knows this.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Nobody is bleeding off your flying, all the flying done by West crews is West flying.

A simple 'Thank you' as you hub in and out of CLT, PHL and DCA would be nice.