US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CactusPilot1]

It could be the union of the ever loving god and reconciling the East and West into the same flight decks looks to never be successful. So you might as well take shots at the almighty, like you do at USAPA.

Talk about a whimpy and lame excuse. Is the next card Usapians are going to play? If you are too stressed out a Westie is sitting next to you, I'd suggest finding a job you can handle.

The almighty and Usapa should not used in the same context. They share nothing in common.

 

[CactusPilot1]

LOA93 for another couple of years, maybe even five or more. Just observing the non-progress of the east, kinda like walking backwards all the time.

Hey Prechill,

Do you have an extra Usapian badge backer laying around? Mine was maliciously accidently destroyed.

I'm running down to Kinkos and have them make me a sticky to replace "Union Pilot"

I like this better:

FAUX UNION PILOT

 

[prechilill]

Hey Prechill,

Do you have an extra Usapian badge backer laying around? Mine was maliciously accidently destroyed.

I'm running down to Kinkos and have them make me a sticky to replace "Union Pilot"

I like this better:

FAUX UNION PILOT

USAPian moto: "Walk backwards but carry a small stick"

 

[USA320Pilot]

Communicating a Message of Representational Desperation

With USAPA officials making false claims about their achievements while fabricating the comments of management in USAPA videos, is the real message one of a failed union desperate to hold on to power at any cost? How long can this last? Where does it lead? When should the US Airways pilots expect to see a realistic plan for success with genuine union values and real results?

See Story

 

[streaman]

I think someone needs to make a copy of this forum and send it to the FAA and the NTSB. This is how a airline works behind the cockoit door! Someone needs to look into this and see if is like this while I am flying around in the cabin. It may take a ream of paper but I am doing it. You people are going to have a crash while your fighting among yourselves, Myself, my family and the people of this country don't deserve this.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Communicating a Message of Representational Desperation

With USAPA officials making false claims about their achievements while fabricating the comments of management in USAPA videos, is the real message one of a failed union desperate to hold on to power at any cost? How long can this last? Where does it lead? When should the US Airways pilots expect to see a realistic plan for success with genuine union values and real results?

See Story

CM desperation

Most of us remember seeing Cleary and other independent union leaders on tv when the patdown issue was introduced. Alpa not visible at the time.

 

[767one]

LOA93 for another couple of years, maybe even five or more. Just observing the non-progress of the east, kinda like walking backwards all the time.

Prechill,

Walking backwards is not so bad.....you get to see where you have been and for old guys like me it helps to take care of leg cramps although I find that tonic water also works IF you add plenty of gin!

Regards,

Bob

 

[767one]

Communicating a Message of Representational Desperation

With USAPA officials making false claims about their achievements while fabricating the comments of management in USAPA videos, is the real message one of a failed union desperate to hold on to power at any cost? How long can this last? Where does it lead? When should the US Airways pilots expect to see a realistic plan for success with genuine union values and real results?

See Story

usa 320,

I guess it will last as long as it takes. If you think you have the votes to decertify you are welcome to try and I don't think that anyone in usapa will deny you the right. These hit and run excerpts from goodness knows where that you post are NOT accomplishing anything.

 

[CallawayGolf]

CM desperation

Most of us remember seeing Cleary and other independent union leaders on tv when the patdown issue was introduced. Alpa not visible at the time.

I agree that Cleary was out there in the beginning stiring the pot on this issue. Like everything else, however, Cleary failed to complete that which he set out to do leaving the door wide open for a respected organization to come in and close the deal. Why would the TSA listen to or trust someone with Cleary/USAPA's track record? Of course they don't but ALPA was listened to and got the deal done.

 

[767one]

Keep trying MM; you might eventually hit the broad side of the barn if you continue firing wildly into the air with no real aim or purpose. So far you have simply failed to connect with real facts and logic on any meaningful issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from posting gibberish over and over again. Let’s look at the facts shall we?

My assertion was that USAPA was never going to deliver a contract based on the fact that the negotiation team is asking for unrealistic terms on the financial issues of the JCBA. Now you may ask why my assertion is a fact rather than an opinion, which is fair – you didn’t ask – but I’ll prove this out anyway. It all comes down to the ability to read financial statements and then use sound logic and reason from there to draw a factual conclusion.

On that note we find that USAPA is requesting a pay-parity retroactive pay increase (signing bonus really) for the east pilots since the date of the merger in 2005. Okay, let’s break that down using very conservative estimates (that would be in your favor MM to make the point). One way to calculate this is to take the $120M Kirby proposal which the Company has said repeatedly would bring the east up to the west pay scale (pay parity) plus it would include a 3% raise for west pilots, right? Now the west pilots represent approximately 1/3 of the total population of US pilots, so their impact on the $120M annual increase needs to be discounted from the Company’s estimates in order to calculate an annual cost for retroactive pay-parity since 2005.

Here’s where the conservative part comes in ... I’ll take 1/3 of the $120M off the proposal to account for the west pilots who would not see retroactive pay under USAPA’s proposal. That reduces the Kirby to $80M in annual retroactive pay for the east pilot group again based on a very, very conservative estimate. Now if we multiply that $80M times six years (assuming USAPA can get to JCBA by the six year anniversary of the merger –not likely, so this is a conservative figure too) we come to a figure of $480M for the retroactive pay USAPA is demanding. Then, we would need to add the value of the increased pay for all pilots under the JCBA which should be no lower than the Kirby proposal of $120M annually, right? Therefore if Management were to go along with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay and agree to wage increases which are no more than what has already been offered under the Kirby proposal, this would equal a $600M wage increase in the year the contract is ratified. Each year there isn’t a contract the year-one costs would go up by another $80M on a very conservative estimate.

Now, where would Management come up with $600M to offer to USAPA to meet its demands? In 2010 the Company reported its second highest year for profits of only $500M. That means that if the year a JCBA is ratified is financially as good as 2010 on the P&L, USAPA’s proposed retroactive pay demand would convert a decent Net Income into a Net Loss. Hmm, so if the second highest year for profits is still not enough to meet USAPA’s pay proposals, where would the money come from for Management to agree with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay parity for the east? The answer is that no Management team or Board of Directors would violate their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and their creditors to sign off on such an expensive labor contract which would propel them into bankruptcy, especially if the Company has an average year for profits rather than a near record-breaking year. There is simply no way this is going to happen and the USAPA negotiating team should know this. If they don’t then they have no business being on the negotiating committee. If they do, then the only people they are fooling are the gullible east pilots who live in a world detached from reality.

Callaway,

I take it from your post that that you actually believe the figures that the company posts are true and that if they are not some govt agency will call them on it.

Regards,

Bob

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway,

I take it from your post that that you actually believe the figures that the company posts are true and that if they are not some govt agency will call them on it.

Regards,

Bob

Bob,

I'm not privy to any information that would provide me with a more accurate calculation based on actual east pilot wages and what pay-parity would amount to annually such as the NC claims to be asking for. Further, I have no reason to doubt that the Kirby proposal is accurately represented as the true financial impact to the Company, not accounting for anything that may have changed since it was offered in 2007. My example was a rough estimation based on a conservative approach to the $120M figure even though I know that far more than 66% of the $120M will go east rather than west.

You seem to be implying that my number is too high (since being too low would further solidify my point). If this is correct and you think I’m overestimating the financial impact to what the NC is seeking, please provide the information so that I can revise my numbers.

Thanks

 

[PullUp]

Bob,

I'm not privy to any information that would provide me with a more accurate calculation based on actual east pilot wages and what pay-parity would amount to annually such as the NC claims to be asking for. Further, I have no reason to doubt that the Kirby proposal is accurately represented as the true financial impact to the Company, not accounting for anything that may have changed since it was offered in 2007. My example was a rough estimation based on a conservative approach to the $120M figure even though I know that far more than 66% of the $120M will go east rather than west.

You seem to be implying that my number is too high (since being too low would further solidify my point). If this is correct and you think I’m overestimating the financial impact to what the NC is seeking, please provide the information so that I can revise my numbers.

Thanks

Lets see, 120m x 4 years = 480 Million. Seems to me they should have the money....they have 2B in the bank...
Cheers.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Lets see, 120m x 4 years = 480 Million. Seems to me they should have the money....they have 2B in the bank...
Cheers.

Do you really think the BOD is going to let the pilots who walked away from the negotiating table in 2007 come in and take from the $1.8B in Cash on Hand from 4Q? Do you know how to read a balance sheet? If so, you might find it interesting to note that the Current Liabilities for 4Q was $2.8B which is needed to cover current debt payments on capital leases (airplanes), Accounts Payable (the stuff that goes into keeping the planes flying and PAX supplies), Air Traffic Liability (taxes due on amounts collected from PAX), other taxes and other future expenses to be paid in less than one year. If this cash on hand is handed over to the pilots then what would US use to pay the debts it owes now? On top of that there is another $4.9B in debt that also needs to be paid in the future from ongoing operating income.

The liquidity ratios of current assets to current liabilities do not support your conclusion that Management or the BOD will just write the pilots a big check out of the goodness of their hearts. Operating expenses (wages) need to be paid for out of operating income for a solvent company. In 2010 there was $500M in operating income that USAPA can salivate over at the negotiating table. If you average out operating income for the past five years you may not even have that much to quibble over.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

I think someone needs to make a copy of this forum and send it to the FAA and the NTSB. This is how a airline works behind the cockoit door! Someone needs to look into this and see if is like this while I am flying around in the cabin. It may take a ream of paper but I am doing it. You people are going to have a crash while your fighting among yourselves, Myself, my family and the people of this country don't deserve this.

East crews do not fly with west crews. The operations are separate. In the name of safety it should stay that way.

 

[CactusPilot1]

streaman, on 17 March 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

I think someone needs to make a copy of this forum and send it to the FAA and the NTSB. This is how a airline works behind the cockoit door! Someone needs to look into this and see if is like this while I am flying around in the cabin. It may take a ream of paper but I am doing it. You people are going to have a crash while your fighting among yourselves, Myself, my family and the people of this country don't deserve this.

I don't think you have to worry about that. Since the association was more than happy to give interviews concerning labor issues in Wisconsin, I know Fox News is interested in their expert analysis. I wonder if JR will be available for an interview in the near future? They will soon get the media coverage they so desire and this will be very public.

JR will probably head down to The Street when a "fair and balanced" interview is requested.