US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CactusPilot1]

I found the song you may be looking for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcRpTr9D6F8

Some compelling WWII footage in the video from the History Channel.

I reserve my hatred for an association and threats made against me. Not people I have not met.

This video should make us all think and take a step back.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

How many votes have you had thus far on the results of USAPA's negotiations with Management? You may have the right to vote, but you can't exercise that right so long as USAPA is incapable of reaching a TA with Management. The bottom line is that USAPA will never achieve a contract with its current negotiating strategy which is completely detached from reality, much like most of your posts MM.

Talk about a reality detachment, that and over 2 MILL I'd say! MM!

 

[cleardirect]

Better yet we won't vote for a contract that doesn't have retro pay parity in it! MM!

You and your single vote keep voting no. Your choice.

No parity pay
No DOH
No line bidding

Enjoy LOA93 until you retire. That happens soon right.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Talk about a reality detachment, that and over 2 MILL I'd say! MM!

Keep trying MM; you might eventually hit the broad side of the barn if you continue firing wildly into the air with no real aim or purpose. So far you have simply failed to connect with real facts and logic on any meaningful issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from posting gibberish over and over again. Let’s look at the facts shall we?

My assertion was that USAPA was never going to deliver a contract based on the fact that the negotiation team is asking for unrealistic terms on the financial issues of the JCBA. Now you may ask why my assertion is a fact rather than an opinion, which is fair – you didn’t ask – but I’ll prove this out anyway. It all comes down to the ability to read financial statements and then use sound logic and reason from there to draw a factual conclusion.

On that note we find that USAPA is requesting a pay-parity retroactive pay increase (signing bonus really) for the east pilots since the date of the merger in 2005. Okay, let’s break that down using very conservative estimates (that would be in your favor MM to make the point). One way to calculate this is to take the $120M Kirby proposal which the Company has said repeatedly would bring the east up to the west pay scale (pay parity) plus it would include a 3% raise for west pilots, right? Now the west pilots represent approximately 1/3 of the total population of US pilots, so their impact on the $120M annual increase needs to be discounted from the Company’s estimates in order to calculate an annual cost for retroactive pay-parity since 2005.

Here’s where the conservative part comes in ... I’ll take 1/3 of the $120M off the proposal to account for the west pilots who would not see retroactive pay under USAPA’s proposal. That reduces the Kirby to $80M in annual retroactive pay for the east pilot group again based on a very, very conservative estimate. Now if we multiply that $80M times six years (assuming USAPA can get to JCBA by the six year anniversary of the merger –not likely, so this is a conservative figure too) we come to a figure of $480M for the retroactive pay USAPA is demanding. Then, we would need to add the value of the increased pay for all pilots under the JCBA which should be no lower than the Kirby proposal of $120M annually, right? Therefore if Management were to go along with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay and agree to wage increases which are no more than what has already been offered under the Kirby proposal, this would equal a $600M wage increase in the year the contract is ratified. Each year there isn’t a contract the year-one costs would go up by another $80M on a very conservative estimate.

Now, where would Management come up with $600M to offer to USAPA to meet its demands? In 2010 the Company reported its second highest year for profits of only $500M. That means that if the year a JCBA is ratified is financially as good as 2010 on the P&L, USAPA’s proposed retroactive pay demand would convert a decent Net Income into a Net Loss. Hmm, so if the second highest year for profits is still not enough to meet USAPA’s pay proposals, where would the money come from for Management to agree with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay parity for the east? The answer is that no Management team or Board of Directors would violate their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and their creditors to sign off on such an expensive labor contract which would propel them into bankruptcy, especially if the Company has an average year for profits rather than a near record-breaking year. There is simply no way this is going to happen and the USAPA negotiating team should know this. If they don’t then they have no business being on the negotiating committee. If they do, then the only people they are fooling are the gullible east pilots who live in a world detached from reality.

 

[PullUp]

Keep trying MM; you might eventually hit the broad side of the barn if you continue firing wildly into the air with no real aim or purpose. So far you have simply failed to connect with real facts and logic on any meaningful issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from posting gibberish over and over again. Let’s look at the facts shall we?

My assertion was that USAPA was never going to deliver a contract based on the fact that the negotiation team is asking for unrealistic terms on the financial issues of the JCBA. Now you may ask why my assertion is a fact rather than an opinion, which is fair – you didn’t ask – but I’ll prove this out anyway. It all comes down to the ability to read financial statements and then use sound logic and reason from there to draw a factual conclusion.

On that note we find that USAPA is requesting a pay-parity retroactive pay increase (signing bonus really) for the east pilots since the date of the merger in 2005. Okay, let’s break that down using very conservative estimates (that would be in your favor MM to make the point). One way to calculate this is to take the $120M Kirby proposal which the Company has said repeatedly would bring the east up to the west pay scale (pay parity) plus it would include a 3% raise for west pilots, right? Now the west pilots represent approximately 1/3 of the total population of US pilots, so their impact on the $120M annual increase needs to be discounted from the Company’s estimates in order to calculate an annual cost for retroactive pay-parity since 2005.

Here’s where the conservative part comes in ... I’ll take 1/3 of the $120M off the proposal to account for the west pilots who would not see retroactive pay under USAPA’s proposal. That reduces the Kirby to $80M in annual retroactive pay for the east pilot group again based on a very, very conservative estimate. Now if we multiply that $80M times six years (assuming USAPA can get to JCBA by the six year anniversary of the merger –not likely, so this is a conservative figure too) we come to a figure of $480M for the retroactive pay USAPA is demanding. Then, we would need to add the value of the increased pay for all pilots under the JCBA which should be no lower than the Kirby proposal of $120M annually, right? Therefore if Management were to go along with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay and agree to wage increases which are no more than what has already been offered under the Kirby proposal, this would equal a $600M wage increase in the year the contract is ratified. Each year there isn’t a contract the year-one costs would go up by another $80M on a very conservative estimate.

Now, where would Management come up with $600M to offer to USAPA to meet its demands? In 2010 the Company reported its second highest year for profits of only $500M. That means that if the year a JCBA is ratified is financially as good as 2010 on the P&L, USAPA’s proposed retroactive pay demand would convert a decent Net Income into a Net Loss. Hmm, so if the second highest year for profits is still not enough to meet USAPA’s pay proposals, where would the money come from for Management to agree with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay parity for the east? The answer is that no Management team or Board of Directors would violate their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and their creditors to sign off on such an expensive labor contract which would propel them into bankruptcy, especially if the Company has an average year for profits rather than a near record-breaking year. There is simply no way this is going to happen and the USAPA negotiating team should know this. If they don’t then they have no business being on the negotiating committee. If they do, then the only people they are fooling are the gullible east pilots who live in a world detached from reality.

Oh, so now we are negotiating through web chat boards? Leave the negotiating to the negotiators. The pilots will get to vote on whatever happens at the table. The fact is, no matter what is being asked for, the company has to counteroffer at some point, n'est pas? The days are gone when the union only asks for what is realistic - because they know that a concessionary counteroffer is the next step by management.
Anyway, in B-school, Labor relations 101, lesson 1, day 1: shoot for the moon, and take the best offer.
Duh...
USAPA's negotiating committee is doing a good job, despite the legal delays. The slow pace is being set by the mediator and the company, not the union.
Perhaps the company is frustrated by a union that cannot be influenced via a national office, ala ALPo.
Cheers.

 

[nic4us]

Callaway,

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that usapa is incapable of getting a contract.

usapa supporters are completely detached from the reality of the circumstances they find themselves in. There will be no negotiations with usapa. The company will gladly sit at the table and bide their time until the mediator parks the reneging malcontents.

I have to think usapa's strategy is nothing more than the continued forcing of seperate ops by continuing to endlessly draw out the bargaining process, with over the top demands and unobtainable mandates. Either that, or, they really are complete idiots.

 

[nic4us]

Oh, so now we are negotiating through web chat boards? Leave the negotiating to the negotiators. The pilots will get to vote on whatever happens at the table. The fact is, no matter what is being asked for, the company has to counteroffer at some point, n'est pas? The days are gone when the union only asks for what is realistic - because they know that a concessionary counteroffer is the next step by management.
Anyway, in B-school, Labor relations 101, lesson 1, day 1: shoot for the moon, and take the best offer.
Duh...
USAPA's negotiating committee is doing a good job, despite the legal delays. The slow pace is being set by the mediator and the company, not the union.
Perhaps the company is frustrated by a union that cannot be influenced via a national office, ala ALPo.
Cheers.

In case you missed it, the West is not leaving anything to usapa.

The only West rep on the NC quit. Waste of time and money.

Nobody is negotiating with usapa. usapa can ask for the moon, but all they are going to get is the self-imposed delay.

The mediator will really set the pace when he parks negotiations and lets the usapa folks who are doing such a good job think about their demands for a few years.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Oh, so now we are negotiating through web chat boards? Leave the negotiating to the negotiators. The pilots will get to vote on whatever happens at the table. The fact is, no matter what is being asked for, the company has to counteroffer at some point, n'est pas? The days are gone when the union only asks for what is realistic - because they know that a concessionary counteroffer is the next step by management.
Anyway, in B-school, Labor relations 101, lesson 1, day 1: shoot for the moon, and take the best offer.
Duh...
USAPA's negotiating committee is doing a good job, despite the legal delays. The slow pace is being set by the mediator and the company, not the union.
Perhaps the company is frustrated by a union that cannot be influenced via a national office, ala ALPo.
Cheers.

I see, so this statement is just hyperbole rather than a promise detached from reality?

“We have the eventual conclusion to our Section 6 Negotiations. We will not bring you a contract
without back pay and parity provisions for our last 5 years of equal work for unequal pay.
Management needs to know that the clock is ticking, and every day they delay, our new contract will
cost them more money.”​

The negotiating committee is "doing a good job" based on what? Three years under USAPA have produced what exactly? Management isn’t frustrated at all. They have the USAPA NC eunuch’s exactly where they want them. If judge Silver provides a solution, then they can get on with the mediation which will not produce results anywhere close to what USAPA is asking for. If Silver punts the ball back into the abyss of a permanent stalemate, then Management gets to keep the east pilots as the lowest-paid group for the rest of their careers. No matter how you slice it USAPA loses, and the east pilots more so. Management has all of the power and the financial incentive to keep it that way indefinitely. Great plan USAPA.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Callaway,

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that usapa is incapable of getting a contract.

usapa supporters are completely detached from the reality of the circumstances they find themselves in. There will be no negotiations with usapa. The company will gladly sit at the table and bide their time until the mediator parks the reneging malcontents.

I have to think usapa's strategy is nothing more than the continued forcing of seperate ops by continuing to endlessly draw out the bargaining process, with over the top demands and unobtainable mandates. Either that, or, they really are complete idiots.

They will never get a contract. They are WEAK, the company plays on this fact. They point at Leonidas for their failures and make West pilots scapegoats. It is a true excercise in deflection. Funny thing, they made ALPA the scapegoat, Nic the scapegoat as well. Their egos and self-importance is really getting the best of them. We all see it. Protecting the inner circle of UHL's and their coveted and overrated legal team. Now they buddy up with Teamsters (there is a badge of honor, LOL) as an attempt to stay in power if (when) USAPA gets booted off this property.

 

[Metroyet]

Do I see peter tracks on that nasty sheet behind him?

You means USKIDA marks?

 

[exB717Flyer]

USAPA's negotiating committee is doing a good job, despite the legal delays.

Just curious, but what criteria do you use to opine they're doing a good job?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Keep trying MM; you might eventually hit the broad side of the barn if you continue firing wildly into the air with no real aim or purpose. So far you have simply failed to connect with real facts and logic on any meaningful issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from posting gibberish over and over again. Let’s look at the facts shall we?

My assertion was that USAPA was never going to deliver a contract based on the fact that the negotiation team is asking for unrealistic terms on the financial issues of the JCBA. Now you may ask why my assertion is a fact rather than an opinion, which is fair – you didn’t ask – but I’ll prove this out anyway. It all comes down to the ability to read financial statements and then use sound logic and reason from there to draw a factual conclusion.

On that note we find that USAPA is requesting a pay-parity retroactive pay increase (signing bonus really) for the east pilots since the date of the merger in 2005. Okay, let’s break that down using very conservative estimates (that would be in your favor MM to make the point). One way to calculate this is to take the $120M Kirby proposal which the Company has said repeatedly would bring the east up to the west pay scale (pay parity) plus it would include a 3% raise for west pilots, right? Now the west pilots represent approximately 1/3 of the total population of US pilots, so their impact on the $120M annual increase needs to be discounted from the Company’s estimates in order to calculate an annual cost for retroactive pay-parity since 2005.

Here’s where the conservative part comes in ... I’ll take 1/3 of the $120M off the proposal to account for the west pilots who would not see retroactive pay under USAPA’s proposal. That reduces the Kirby to $80M in annual retroactive pay for the east pilot group again based on a very, very conservative estimate. Now if we multiply that $80M times six years (assuming USAPA can get to JCBA by the six year anniversary of the merger –not likely, so this is a conservative figure too) we come to a figure of $480M for the retroactive pay USAPA is demanding. Then, we would need to add the value of the increased pay for all pilots under the JCBA which should be no lower than the Kirby proposal of $120M annually, right? Therefore if Management were to go along with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay and agree to wage increases which are no more than what has already been offered under the Kirby proposal, this would equal a $600M wage increase in the year the contract is ratified. Each year there isn’t a contract the year-one costs would go up by another $80M on a very conservative estimate.

Now, where would Management come up with $600M to offer to USAPA to meet its demands? In 2010 the Company reported its second highest year for profits of only $500M. That means that if the year a JCBA is ratified is financially as good as 2010 on the P&L, USAPA’s proposed retroactive pay demand would convert a decent Net Income into a Net Loss. Hmm, so if the second highest year for profits is still not enough to meet USAPA’s pay proposals, where would the money come from for Management to agree with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay parity for the east? The answer is that no Management team or Board of Directors would violate their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and their creditors to sign off on such an expensive labor contract which would propel them into bankruptcy, especially if the Company has an average year for profits rather than a near record-breaking year. There is simply no way this is going to happen and the USAPA negotiating team should know this. If they don’t then they have no business being on the negotiating committee. If they do, then the only people they are fooling are the gullible east pilots who live in a world detached from reality.

Callaway, at least I can find the barn, your 1 page diatribe proves you absolutely know nothing about corporate finance or accounting, stick with golf the numbers are smaller! MM!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway, at least I can find the barn, your 1 page diatribe proves you absolutely know nothing about corporate finance or accounting, stick with golf the numbers are smaller! MM!

LOL, you're as funny as always (in a pathetic sort of way). Okay, I'll keep this short. Please demonstrate your corporate finance and accounting prowess and show me (us) where I'm wrong.

What value do you place on 5+ years of pay parity restoration for the east pilots and how does that compare to US' financial position in 2010 or 2011? Once you provide that information, then please tell us where the money will come from to pay for what USAPA is trying to "negotiate"?

 

[Metroyet]

Just curious, but what criteria do you use to opine they're doing a good job?

They haven't resulted to self-immolation yet....so there's a measure of hope?

Good Job NAC!!!

 

[RSVP767]

Keep trying MM; you might eventually hit the broad side of the barn if you continue firing wildly into the air with no real aim or purpose. So far you have simply failed to connect with real facts and logic on any meaningful issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from posting gibberish over and over again. Let’s look at the facts shall we?

My assertion was that USAPA was never going to deliver a contract based on the fact that the negotiation team is asking for unrealistic terms on the financial issues of the JCBA. Now you may ask why my assertion is a fact rather than an opinion, which is fair – you didn’t ask – but I’ll prove this out anyway. It all comes down to the ability to read financial statements and then use sound logic and reason from there to draw a factual conclusion.

On that note we find that USAPA is requesting a pay-parity retroactive pay increase (signing bonus really) for the east pilots since the date of the merger in 2005. Okay, let’s break that down using very conservative estimates (that would be in your favor MM to make the point). One way to calculate this is to take the $120M Kirby proposal which the Company has said repeatedly would bring the east up to the west pay scale (pay parity) plus it would include a 3% raise for west pilots, right? Now the west pilots represent approximately 1/3 of the total population of US pilots, so their impact on the $120M annual increase needs to be discounted from the Company’s estimates in order to calculate an annual cost for retroactive pay-parity since 2005.

Here’s where the conservative part comes in ... I’ll take 1/3 of the $120M off the proposal to account for the west pilots who would not see retroactive pay under USAPA’s proposal. That reduces the Kirby to $80M in annual retroactive pay for the east pilot group again based on a very, very conservative estimate. Now if we multiply that $80M times six years (assuming USAPA can get to JCBA by the six year anniversary of the merger –not likely, so this is a conservative figure too) we come to a figure of $480M for the retroactive pay USAPA is demanding. Then, we would need to add the value of the increased pay for all pilots under the JCBA which should be no lower than the Kirby proposal of $120M annually, right? Therefore if Management were to go along with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay and agree to wage increases which are no more than what has already been offered under the Kirby proposal, this would equal a $600M wage increase in the year the contract is ratified. Each year there isn’t a contract the year-one costs would go up by another $80M on a very conservative estimate.

Now, where would Management come up with $600M to offer to USAPA to meet its demands? In 2010 the Company reported its second highest year for profits of only $500M. That means that if the year a JCBA is ratified is financially as good as 2010 on the P&L, USAPA’s proposed retroactive pay demand would convert a decent Net Income into a Net Loss. Hmm, so if the second highest year for profits is still not enough to meet USAPA’s pay proposals, where would the money come from for Management to agree with USAPA’s demand for retroactive pay parity for the east? The answer is that no Management team or Board of Directors would violate their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and their creditors to sign off on such an expensive labor contract which would propel them into bankruptcy, especially if the Company has an average year for profits rather than a near record-breaking year. There is simply no way this is going to happen and the USAPA negotiating team should know this. If they don’t then they have no business being on the negotiating committee. If they do, then the only people they are fooling are the gullible east pilots who live in a world detached from reality.

Yep, and the company has been told that the contact gets more expensive every day they drag it out.