US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

So, I haven't heard a peep from any West pilots about my suggestion that they back off two or three hours a month to bring back the rest of your furloughed guys. Bad idea?

You already have a well established AOL private website to "put the word out", should be a "no brainer" yes?

Like I have said several times now, I really admire the "unity" displayed by the West. Come on, help your brother and sister pilots out, you don't need the company or those "USASPIANS" to make it happen.

I'm ashamed that the East hasn't done so!

seajay

 

[Zone5]

Next trip tell the guy/gal sitting next to you that he/she took it all away - over 1 out of every 2 pilots voted for everything except the pension and the TA (not counting E190 Pay, which was voted on).

Jim

Funny thing about that, I don't seem to fly with ANYBODY who voted for that garbage! What's up with that? :blink:

I'm not remotely proud of the lack of backbone displayed by my fellow East compatriots.

seajay

 

[cleardirect]

So, I haven't heard a peep from any West pilots about my suggestion that they back off two or three hours a month to bring back the rest of your furloughed guys. Bad idea?

You already have a well established AOL private website to "put the word out", should be a "no brainer" yes?

Like I have said several times now, I really admire the "unity" displayed by the West. Come on, help your brother and sister pilots out, you don't need the company or those "USASPIANS" to make it happen.

I'm ashamed that the East hasn't done so!

seajay

This has been discussed many times among the west pilots. As of the April bid there are 1097 line holders. First the 99 hours is an option not an assignment. The only way for someone to get to 99 is for someone else to give it away. So that is a zero sum game. We are allowed and some do drop to 40 hours.

The other problem with straight math like you used is we have 2 small fleets. 737, 757. 40 line holders on each airplane with 30-20 reserves respectively. Plus the types of trips those planes fly. 90-95% of the 757 does Hawaii. There is no way to just drop 3 hours. The pairings just don’t work that way. The 737 has shorter pairings but with so few it would not make a difference.

The 320 is running about 15% reserve. The 320 has about 470 line holders in each seat. At 85 hours and 45 furloughs that is 3825 block hour to find. Divided by 470 is 8.1 hours not 3.

For April the airbus has 34346 block hours. 555 eligible bus pilots, 470 line holders. If you divided the available block hours by line holders it is 73 hours per line holder.

While a noble ides the math just does not work out.

 

[Zone5]

It seems like most of the East won't accept anything but DOH with largely meaningless C&R's or they'll scream that they're losing their "seniority" (so says $eham). Most of the West won't accept DOH with largely meaningless C&R's - they'll scream that the East pilots are taking their jobs. Unfortunately, unless USAPA takes a U-turn there is no entity on the West to "work these concerns out."

A judge or judges will issue a ruling that will bring this all to a close. Unless the courts say that the Nic is the list that must be used, then USAPA could always try not getting a combined contract.

Jim

That's bull. The West has PHX reps that can and should advocate for the West pilots concerns. If the current C&R's don't get the job done, advocate to change them. The PHX reps have the ability to post updates on the USAPA web site, unrestricted.

I can only speak for myself, but if the C&R's were changed to PROTECT the West and East pilots from a "windfall" in either direction, I would be 100% for it. I suspect, many others would also be. It's not that hard to do.

If USAPA somehow refuses to cooperate in this regard, then they should be voted off the property. Like I have said, we all have much more in common than our "leaders" want us to believe.

I remember having the opportunity to fight, examine and actually sit in a number of USSR fighter aircraft (don't ask, if I told you, I would have to kill you) in a former life. The thing that struck me was, how on the one hand, it seemed like I was sitting in a totally foreign "Vulcan" cockpit (similar but just different) and how on the other hand, it was much the same. As are ALL of us.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

This has been discussed many times among the west pilots. As of the April bid there are 1097 line holders. First the 99 hours is an option not an assignment. The only way for someone to get to 99 is for someone else to give it away. So that is a zero sum game. We are allowed and some do drop to 40 hours.

The other problem with straight math like you used is we have 2 small fleets. 737, 757. 40 line holders on each airplane with 30-20 reserves respectively. Plus the types of trips those planes fly. 90-95% of the 757 does Hawaii. There is no way to just drop 3 hours. The pairings just don’t work that way. The 737 has shorter pairings but with so few it would not make a difference.

The 320 is running about 15% reserve. The 320 has about 470 line holders in each seat. At 85 hours and 45 furloughs that is 3825 block hour to find. Divided by 470 is 8.1 hours not 3.

For April the airbus has 34346 block hours. 555 eligible bus pilots, 470 line holders. If you divided the available block hours by line holders it is 73 hours per line holder.

While a noble ides the math just does not work out.

Thanks for the reply. You see how the company and USAPA for that matter, keeps us both in the "dark" on how "things work?" I'm glad that the West has "discussed this many times", I suspect that those "discussions" have been "half hearted" at best. Just as they have been on the East! Lots of bla, bla, bla but no REAL effort to "make it happen". Would I take a $1,000 a month pay cut to bring back the rest of the East furloughed pilots? You bet your ass I would.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's bull. The West has PHX reps that can and should advocate for the West pilots concerns.

But what chance of changing the USAPA train do two members of the BPR have of getting real change? There still seems to be mostly unity of the East for DOH and I don't keep up with the rep count by base but suspect the CLT reps could outvote PHX.

I can only speak for myself, but if the C&R's were changed to PROTECT the West and East pilots from a "windfall" in either direction, I would be 100% for it. I suspect, many others would also be. It's not that hard to do.

Short of a 20 year fence between the two sides, effectively maintaining separate ops but with one seniority list and one contract, I'm not sure that a few C&R's will not end up with one side or the other yelling "windfall". You're welcome to try to write something and I'll comment.

If USAPA somehow refuses to cooperate in this regard, then they should be voted off the property. Like I have said, we all have much more in common than our "leaders" want us to believe.

Just look at the posters here. Aside from a few, the Easties want DOH with as little impediment to bidding PHX as possible (i.e. they support USAPA). The Westies want the Nic, which keeps their seniority where it would have to be for them to keep their jobs. That's a huge chasm to bridge. But again, you're welcome to propose some C&R's that you think will make each side relatively happy. It's not a small job - Kagel had something like 6-10 pages of the award devoted to C&R's and the difference between the two sides was minor compared to this mess. Even with all those C&R's there were about 2 dozen times that the interpretation of the C&R's had to be worked out between the two sides or by Kagel. If you stray from the Nic, who gets to decide how to interpret/implement any C&R's - USAPA.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps. Tell you the truth, I don't exactly recall how long it lasted, but I don't think it was years. Seemed like it went away pretty quick. So in my lifetime, it might have been something under 10% of the time I have been here. O boy, like I said, the worlds most expensive magazine subscription!

seajay

Two and a half months. I have the pay stubs.

Parity + 1% was the most notable fluke that Wolf ever agreed to and to think anyone gives any credit to ALPA for a grand strategy of "pattern bargaining" is laughable.

The only pattern ALPA has ever succeeded at is the pattern of RJs, express carriers, Rigs, vacation reductions, and every other conceivable concession all geared at keeping caviar brunches and chateaubriand resorts for the real ALPA pilots.

I miss ALPA so, so much.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

There are some seniority ideas out there that unfortunately will not be given a chance.

1) the merger committee was written about changing the C& R to give West 1/3 of 767 slots with DOH for 5 years. They replied they were satisfied with C&R as they stand.

2) make the pay scale so we do not chase planes, saves on training costs. Seniority pay with 5-10% override for CA and 5-10 % override international. This was not possible when Wake ruled, but is possible at present using DOH or NIC. The problem is it is a huge paradigm shift and some younger members of the group as a whole will lose out for a few years.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Interesting thoughts, Sparrow. What about D Holler?A

From: dholler |
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:11 PM
To: Mike Davis
Subject: Re: LOA93
You may share if you wish.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: dholler |
Sent: Tuesday, De )erO 1,2009 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: LOA93

I don't recall writing a paper addressing that issue as an opinion. I can tell you what I know to be true.

1. There was one mention of a snapback in the negotiations surrounding LOA 93 and that was on day 1, the first pass of the pilots' proposal to the Company where we addressed a snapback to previous rates. The Company unequivocally rejected the notion as the financial situation was so dire (and it was dire) that to achieve financing, a projected snapback would not be received favorably by lenders or investors.

2. The goal of LOA 93 was to provide financial relief for the company so that it could survive. The goal of the negotiating committee at the time was to come up with an ability to save the company $300 million dollars on average per year of cash because cash flow was killing the company at that time. The ATSB was tying up cash by restricting it's use so that it could secure the loan that was in place ($900 million). In addition, the credit card processing company was restricting as much cash as possible to cover the outstanding credit card debt that was in place due to advance bookings. They didn't want to get stuck holding the bag if the company went insolvent. Then there was GE Capital (the bulldogs in the junkyard) that were pulling everyone's strings on the debt on the airframes. With everyone grabbing cash to secure the current debt, there was little to no cash for operations. The goal was to live to fight another day.

3. There is no snapback, no term on the rates, except that the contract becomes amendable on December 31st, 2009. To tell you that USAPA doesn't have a chance in this grievance is an understatement. I have not been contacted to testify in the grievance nor has Doug Mowery and we are the only two remaining members of that committee still on the property. Why? Because I cannot sit on the stand and testify that there was a term on the rates other than the amendable date on the LOA where new rates would be negotiable. Doug Mowery has not been contacted either because his position is essentially the same. Why? Because that is the reality of the situation. The problem at hand is that there is nothing to support the union position from a practical standpoint. Trust me, I would love a snap back to previous rates but I won't commit perjury to get there when it isn't the truth. This particular arbitration will, in my view, be one of the shortest in history and it won't be favorable for the pilot group. Until, USAPA gets serious about a contract, settling the rift between East and West (for example dropping the Cactus 18 lawsuit which has no benefit for the pilot group) and acting like they represent all of the pilots, the current rates will be here for a long time unfortunately. This pilot group needs to start acting in a business like fashion and deal with the company in a businesslike fashion because it's all about the money. The company has it and we deserve to be compensated at a reasonable level. Gunfighters don't scream nasty remarks at each other they simply pull out the gun, pull the trigger, step over the body and take the horse. It's time that we start acting like gunfighters in the business world and leave the sophomoric emotional distractions out of it this is business. Just my opinion as a business and finance guy for what it's worth.

My best to you and yours for a blessed holiday season.

Warmest Regards,
Don
Don M. Hollerbach CPA/ABV/CFF, CFE, FCPA, CVA, CDFA

 

[767jetz]

So, I haven't heard a peep from any West pilots about my suggestion that they back off two or three hours a month to bring back the rest of your furloughed guys. Bad idea?

You already have a well established AOL private website to "put the word out", should be a "no brainer" yes?

Like I have said several times now, I really admire the "unity" displayed by the West. Come on, help your brother and sister pilots out, you don't need the company or those "USASPIANS" to make it happen.

I'm ashamed that the East hasn't done so!

seajay

There is also a legal problem. If you suddenly stop working overtime, the company can cry that the pilots have changed the status quo. If they can prove that is was an organized concerted effort, they will cry illegal work action. UA pilots did something similar on 3 occasions. During summer 2000, no one worked overtime. We worked to the rule of the contract, and no more. Effective yes, but came close to landing people in hot water. Then, more recently the same thing happened when pilots were upset about contract negotiations (prior to the CO merger). The company got a cease and desist order claiming it was an illegal sickout. And we are all familiar with the current injunction against UA ALPA for a concerted effort by a few pilots to influence others to no longer accept "senior manning." While I agree with your idea, and personally NEVER fly more than required regardless of furloughs or not, the concept of organizing a reduction of service can land those pilots and ironically USAPA as well in very hot legal water.

 

[767jetz]

That's bull. The West has PHX reps that can and should advocate for the West pilots concerns. If the current C&R's don't get the job done, advocate to change them. The PHX reps have the ability to post updates on the USAPA web site, unrestricted.

seajay

I'm not sure if anyone in power at USAP is interested in changing anything, especially not on the BPR for 2 PHX reps, as has been pointed out by others.

People are so entrenched in their positions that to get the west to agree not to sue for failure of DFR, the C&R's would have to be changes so much as to make it look very similar to nic anyway. You'd have a better chance by starting with nic and adding a few C&R's, and then get a contract that significantly raises the east's quality of life from LOA93. Since the west has the law and binding arbitration on their side, as well as having the company by the short hairs if they conspire, it is very unlikely anyone on the west will capitulate or even compromise unless it comes VERY close to the nic. Which as you have pointed out is unacceptable to you. IMO we're not talking about building a bridge across a river. It's more like building a bridge across an ocean. The west's best course of action is to navigate this through in the courts. Of course this takes time, leaving both sides with no improvements, but hurting the east more due to LOA93.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

All alpo ever told the west was 'you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, and no one likes you.'

 

[psw737]

There are some seniority ideas out there that unfortunately will not be given a chance.

1) the merger committee was written about changing the C& R to give West 1/3 of 767 slots with DOH for 5 years. They replied they were satisfied with C&R as they stand.

2) make the pay scale so we do not chase planes, saves on training costs. Seniority pay with 5-10% override for CA and 5-10 % override international. This was not possible when Wake ruled, but is possible at present using DOH or NIC. The problem is it is a huge paradigm shift and some younger members of the group as a whole will lose out for a few years.

I am a huge advocate of having the same pay rate for all fleet types. There is no incentive to chase aircraft for pay as you stated, reduces training cost, and in the long run will give you better quality of life. Most of the UPS guys I've spoke with over the years really like 1 pay rate. In fact not sure if this is still true but the 727 was actually the senior bird not the heavies. Who the hell wants to be flying all night long when your in your 50's and 60's? I'll take a raincheck on that one.

I'm not sure I agree with your comment on how some of the younger memebers of the pilot group would lose out for a few years??? Please explain your thoughts on this.... You talking upgrades?

 

[oscarjazz]

For how many months? and your right about that pension! ALPA! ALPA NAT'L saw it coming and guess who was PRES and his pension was frozen, and wasn't it LEE MOAK who at the time was DL's MEC chairman that said the Industry would be better off without USAIRWAYS! Now ALPA president and POS! MM!

I know we don't like facts to get in the way of this forum's rantings, but Lee Moak was elected MEC Chairman in October of 2005. Delta was in bankruptcy and US Airways was merged. It was actually US Airways that tried a hostile takeover of Delta with the plan to put 1/3 of our pilots on the street. Didn't hear a peep from Airways pilots over that plan. But keep ranting nonetheless if it makes you feel good.

 

[luvthe9]

It was actually US Airways that tried a hostile takeover of Delta with the plan to put 1/3 of our pilots on the street. Didn't hear a peep from Airways pilots over that plan.

Was that knid of like Delta's business plan to hope for liquidation of our airline and put "all" our pilots on the street?