US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You weren't complaining about ALPA when your paycheck reflected "parity plus 1%" which was a direct result of pattern bargaining at Delta and United.

For how many months? and your right about that pension! ALPA! ALPA NAT'L saw it coming and guess who was PRES and his pension was frozen, and wasn't it LEE MOAK who at the time was DL's MEC chairman that said the Industry would be better off without USAIRWAYS! Now ALPA president and POS! MM!

 

[Zone5]

Like I said, a pretty narrow view. From Webster's:

a. A worker who refuses membership in a labor union.
b. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.
c. A person hired to replace a striking worker.

Given your definition, I assume that you'll correct Nos the next time he says that AWA had scabs because they flew Ansett routes after the Ansett pilots all quit.

Jim

Ya, that whole Ansett thing was pretty convoluted. As I understand it, they quit their jobs. Big difference between being "on strike" and just walking away. At any rate, it stunk pretty bad and I would not have participated in any way shape or form. "Scabs" maybe not, definitely not good however.

Sort of like having an abortion, is it "legal"? Ya, but not something to celebrate. Been to any congratulatory, "I just had an abortion" parties lately?

I guess you got to do, what you got to do.

seajay

 

[lineguy43]

Jim,

I believe it was UA. Cause I know it caused a spike in our raises too.

It was UA but never the less the IAM lives for "me too" clauses.

 

[Zone5]

It was over a year. Perhaps you're thinking of the 2nd parity review that resulted in a decent increase in pay. I think UA pilots got a big raise which triggered the raise in the 1st parity review, then DL got their big raise which was included in the 2nd parity review and triggered another big raise. I may have UA and DL reversed, but one of them was responsible for the first big raise and the other was responsible for the 2nd. Granted, the 2nd increase only lasted 2-3 months before the concessions leading up to BK1 were ratified by the pilot group. That put pay about the same as after the 1st parity review. Then LOA 93 dropped pay below pre-parity review levels, again ratified by the pilot group.

Jim

Thanks Jim, that's pretty much how I remember it too. The "good times" didn't last long!

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

I assume you'll take that up with him

As I expected, one Eastie can't say that another Eastie is wrong about anything. You and the others stand quietly by as Nos spews his half-truths and lies all he wants. Seems like you don't like it thrown back, though.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thanks Jim, that's pretty much how I remember it too. The "good times" didn't last long!

seajay

Yeah, unfortunately the majority of pilots voted for the concessions and now want to blame some omnipotent "ALPA" unless they're taking credit for "saving US". Then it's the pilots doing and ALPA had nothing to do with it.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

Perhaps. Tell you the truth, I don't exactly recall how long it lasted, but I don't think it was years. Seemed like it went away pretty quick. So in my lifetime, it might have been something under 10% of the time I have been here. O boy, like I said, the worlds most expensive magazine subscription!

seajay

Don't forget 9-11 was the triggering event that allowed Wolf and Gangwal to pare over 100 aircraft from the fleet and set the stage for the Siegel/Bronner/Jerry Glass gutting of our careers.

It was never a very good magazine, at any price....

 

[700UW]

There was no "me too" clause between the IAM, US and ALPA or any other cba

 

[Zone5]

Interesting! usapa charges the same dues rate but they don't even send out a magazine. I guess that makes them the world most expensive what?

Same dues rate plus assessments? With nothing to show for it after 3 years. Like I said pathetic.

I guess, most dis-functional union. Granted the "jury" is still out on USAPA. Personally, I'll take them over ALPA any day! Like they used to say over at AA, "Crandall might be an ass-hole, but at least he is our ass-hole".

USAPA is at least an interesting experiment. Worth the effort to throw off the "arrogant" yoke of ALPA. Revolutions are inherently messy. Takes a while to work through the growing pains.

At the end of the day, I think the most important concept to fight for is that no one ends up with a "windfall". I know I don't want to "gain" anything from the West and I don't think the West should "gain" anything from me. How do you maintain "status quo"? Maybe separate ops will turn out to be the best solution. Time will tell. In enough time, it won't even matter.

In the mean time, a serious attempt to address the legitimate concerns of both the East and the West in that regard should be undertaken, whether that turns out to be the purview of USAPA, ALPA or something else, I really don't care. It just needs to be done.

I think both pilot groups have a lot more in common, than the "leaders" of our factions care to admit.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

Yeah, unfortunately the majority of pilots voted for the concessions and now want to blame some omnipotent "ALPA" unless they're taking credit for "saving US". Then it's the pilots doing and ALPA had nothing to do with it.

Jim

Not me, I NEVER voted for ANYTHING ALPA "allowed" me to!

seajay

 

[cleardirect]

I guess, most dis-functional union. Granted the "jury" is still out on USAPA. Personally, I'll take them over ALPA any day! Like they used to say over at AA, "Crandall might be an ass-hole, but at least he is our ass-hole".

USAPA is at least an interesting experiment. Worth the effort to throw off the "arrogant" yoke of ALPA. Revolutions are inherently messy. Takes a while to work through the growing pains.

At the end of the day, I think the most important concept to fight for is that no one ends up with a "windfall". I know I don't want to "gain" anything from the West and I don't think the West should "gain" anything from me. How do you maintain "status quo"? Maybe separate ops will turn out to be the best solution. Time will tell. In enough time, it won't even matter.

In the mean time, a serious attempt to address the legitimate concerns of both the East and the West in that regard should be undertaken, whether that turns out to be the purview of USAPA, ALPA or something else, I really don't care. It just needs to be done.

I think both pilot groups have a lot more in common, than the "leaders" of our factions care to admit.

seajay

"Revolutions are inherently messy. Takes a while to work through the growing pains."
How long did Cuba have their revolution? Have they worked out the growing pains yet?
Is it going to take usapa that long to work through it? Biggie posted an unsigned letter exposing great splits within usapa.

I guess it depends on how you define windfall. Howe about we let a neutral third party with not dog in the fight decide what is or is not a windfall.

 

[Zone5]

Don't forget 9-11 was the triggering event that allowed Wolf and Gangwal to pare over 100 aircraft from the fleet and set the stage for the Siegel/Bronner/Jerry Glass gutting of our careers.

It was never a very good magazine, at any price....

For sure! Got to really hate those rag-heads. I remember watching the second plane slamming in to the World Trade Center on TV and my Wife asking me "what does this mean?" and telling her, " It means I won't be flying to Munich today!" "OH, and sell the new car we just bought."

As far as the magazine is concerned, I always liked the "don't buy the XXXX company playing cards" because they are printed by "non-union" low life's. I think we actually used to give them out in First Class!

seajay

 

[Zone5]

"Revolutions are inherently messy. Takes a while to work through the growing pains."
How long did Cuba have their revolution? Have they worked out the growing pains yet?
Is it going to take usapa that long to work through it? Biggie posted an unsigned letter exposing great splits within usapa.

I guess it depends on how you define windfall. Howe about we let a neutral third party with not dog in the fight decide what is or is not a windfall.

Cuba? So now this has reached the level of global politics? PPLLEEAASSEE!

True enough though, how does one define "windfall?" Clearly, a lot of US Airways pilots consider the NIC to be a "windfall" for the West. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I still don't get why the two factions can't get together and figure that one out.

I've never said that the West doesn't have legitimate concerns that should not be adequately addressed. I think the East has them also. The NIC did not do so, CLEARLY.

It is possible to work these concerns out. I don't give a rat's ass if it's called the NIC or DOH. The bottom line is that neither faction should feel they have LOST something they already had. It's just that simple.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not me, I NEVER voted for ANYTHING ALPA "allowed" me to!

seajay

Next trip tell the guy/gal sitting next to you that he/she took it all away - over 1 out of every 2 pilots voted for everything except the pension and the TA (not counting E190 Pay, which was voted on).

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is possible to work these concerns out. I don't give a rat's ass if it's called the NIC or DOH. The bottom line is that neither faction should feel they have LOST something they already had. It's just that simple.

seajay

It seems like most of the East won't accept anything but DOH with largely meaningless C&R's or they'll scream that they're losing their "seniority" (so says $eham). Most of the West won't accept DOH with largely meaningless C&R's - they'll scream that the East pilots are taking their jobs. Unfortunately, unless USAPA takes a U-turn there is no entity on the West to "work these concerns out."

A judge or judges will issue a ruling that will bring this all to a close. Unless the courts say that the Nic is the list that must be used, then USAPA could always try not getting a combined contract.

Jim