US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

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I'll give credit to 924PS for this one, anybody with internet can put stuff on WIKI, not a credible source! MM!

 

[BoeingBoy]

I asked because someone mentioned in a post you did! MM!

Yeah, that's one of the many lies Nos had posted (only he used "kin") that got picked up by other East posters. I thought that you were one of those who picked up the lie, changed it to nephew, and posted the modified lie again, but if the search feature is working correctly it wasn't you.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

anybody with internet can put stuff on WIKI, not a credible source! MM!

Like this:

NegotiationsIn 1995 the IACP met with exceptional initial success by securing the first contract for the Continental pilots in more than ten years, and the very first contract for the Continental Express pilots. Most noteworthy is that the contracts were negotiated while the airline was mired in its second bankruptcy, and during the life of the Continental contract, overall pilot compensation was increased more than 80%. In 1999 the contract negotiations by the IACP yielded even greater improvements to the pay and benefits of Continental pilots. The Continental pilot contract was followed shortly by a new contract for the Continental Express pilots.

[edit] MergerA third organizational effort by ALPA [date ?] (headed by the then current IACP president captain Pat Burke) was finally successful and the Continental and Continental Express pilots elected to be represented by ALPA, at which time the IACP ceased to exist. Ironically, the strike breaking pilots(which is the most notable moral violation and ethical no-no by a union) were all given good standing in the newly formed ALPA unit; a hypocrisy to say the least.

Which came from Wiki.....

It's not good form to dismiss Wiki as not credible after you've quoted it...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Because Cleary is sitting on the result. Doug could not make transactions on Wall Street with this sort of financial liability hanging over his head unless he had some sort of result from the arbitrator. Looking back and looking forward for a couple of years, you're talking right around a billion dollars in added expense. Think he could be renegotiating cash balance requirements, loans, etc with that sort of liability unknown?

The question isn't about the result of LOA93, it's how long Cleary can sit on that result. I bet he can for quite some time.

Spartan, seeing how the arbitrator mails the decision to all parties at the same time, if Cleary were to sit on a down decision, why would the Company not come out with a press release or statement stating the decision came out in their favor?Parker has an obligation to investors to release the decision also. Why would he sit on it? Or is Parker conspiring with Cleary against the West? Contrary to what Cactus1 has said, there is absolutely no mention of snap back. This is not a snap back. This is going to be a serious win for the east pilots in my opinion. If it is a win, then the company is going to get rocked from all sides. The west pilots will lose any leverage they feel they have for ever getting a contract with the Nicolau, not that they had any leverage right now. Their perception that East pilots are willing to capitulate to the Nic is way off base.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Like this:

Which came from Wiki.....

It's not good form to dismiss Wiki as not credible after you've quoted it...

Jim

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2001/28n080.html coupled with this it is credible ! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Just agreeing with you JIM, PROOF!

 

[Phoenix]

Don't know about your nephew but hope he is well! MM!

The early pics look more like it might be a niece.... hence all the "proof" evasion..

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The early pics look more like it might be a niece.... hence all the "proof" evasion..

I luved those ads!

 

[BoeingBoy]

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2001/28n080.html coupled with this it is credible ! MM!

Although the Wiki quote makes it sound like ALPA was elected in another representational election when in reality IACP and ALPA merged. Of course, as I've said before, that whole episode evolved from Lorenzo abrogating the contracts and refusing to recognize that the pilots were represented.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The early pics look more like it might be a niece.... hence all the "proof" evasion..

Well, Nos didn't specify a sex, he said "Kin" which could include lots of relatives of both sexes. As for his failure to produce any proof, I'd say that's because there is no proof. Nos seems to just make it up as needed, which is apparently fine with most of the East posters here.

Just like the link he posted yesterday titled "AWA Route Network". If any of you bothered to look at it, it was the network of US non-stop flights from PHX - NOT the route map of AWA at the time of the merger or the West now. Everything Nos posts is twisted if not an outright lie.

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Although the Wiki quote makes it sound like ALPA was elected in another representational election when in reality IACP and ALPA merged. Of course, as I've said before, that whole episode evolved from Lorenzo abrogating the contracts and refusing to recognize that the pilots were represented.

Jim

We write to request that the Board transfer certification to represent the pilots and flight instructors of Continental Airlines and Continental Express for purposes of collective bargaining from the Independent Association of Continental Pilots ("IACP") to the Air Line Pilots Association ("ALPA"). The officers of both unions make this request pursuant to the terms of the Merger Agreement entered into by the parties. . . . The Agreement becomes effective on June 1, 2001. . . .



The parties have met all requirements under their Merger Agreement for transfer of certification. Consistent with their respective Constitutions and By-laws, the governing bodies of both unions have approved the Agreement, and the members of the IACP have voted by secret ballot to ratify it and transfer representation rights to ALPA. . . . Following the ratification vote, ALPA's Executive Board ratified the Merger Agreement on May 22, 2001.


ALPA's executive board agreed to represnt the very pilots who crossed the picket line alot of them are members in good standing of ALPA today!

 

[BoeingBoy]

ALPA's executive board agreed to represnt the very pilots who crossed the picket line alot of them are members in good standing of ALPA today!

Not that it's right, but the union is charged with representing ALL the pilots at a carrier (in this case, the two carriers - CO and COX. As has been posted, USAPA has scabs that are MIGS. As is said, people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks...

Jim

 

[Zone5]

One of the few rational voices left. Bravo for maintaining a higher standard while keeping true to your own beliefs. A reminder that there is intelligent life on this planet. On that note, I'm done with bickering and responding to those who prefer dragging everyone down to their level. Time to move on.

So seajay, what is your opinion on the current splinters starting to show? Do you think USAPA would win a representational election today?

It seems to me that considering the first card drive was not a landslide in USAPA's favor, that if relief does not come from the LOA93 grievance, there may be enough people ready to move forward with a better contract that includes nic and perhaps a few more protections here and there.

Also, wanted to know your thoughts on attrition. Nic gave the east 2 of 3 upgrades, which accounts for the higher attrition on the east from the left seat. Would that really disadvantage you as much as some around here claim?

Time to move on indeed! Past time.

The "splinters" have always been there. Back in the day, as long as the "senior" pilots got what they wanted, the bottom 1/3 had to "make do" with the scraps. But that was OK, because "someday, you will be senior too". Didn't quite work out that way.

I remember my new hire class being taken out for dinner by some junior ALPA smuck (just some volunteer, as I recall, a fella named Chris Beebe) to a steak house called the Ground Round on, believe it or not, Beer School Road in Pittsburgh. Chris sat at the head of the table and proceeded to apologize for the recently signed ALPA contract which established the "B" scale we would all be subjected to for the next five years. There were several years to come where senior flight attendants were making more money than I was, new hire 190 pilots are in that position today! But I digress, the story ALPA told at the time was that the "B" scale didn't really matter, because we were ALL going to "check out" as Captains long before we got off the "new" five year plan. One of my classmates, an EAL refugee, burst out laughing and told Chris "you don't know dick!" Truer words have never been spoken!

Along comes a few DOH mergers, hell even the "slotting" of the Shuttle put almost all of those guys ahead of me. But that was OK, because the pie got bigger and "someday, you will be senior too". We all know how that worked out, good ole USAir managements idea of a merger was to buy a company, sell their airplanes and "shrink" to profitability. All the while keeping the acquired pilots with their ALPA provided DOH. But that was OK, because "someday, you will be senior too".

Now along comes the AWA transaction, merger, acquisition, rescue, rescued, whatever and low and behold the ALPA way to do things turns out to be to pull the DOH stick out of my ass, turn it around 180 degrees and shove it back in with NIC written all over it. But thats OK, because "someday, you will be senior too", NOT, even without the NIC stick! Such is life, but if the fine young man just ahead of me on the NIC (who will be here 23 years after I retire at age 65) thinks that's OK, "Houston we have a problem"!

You know what, I think USAPA could very well be "voted" off the property, particularly if LOA-93 goes to the company. Only one way to find out, just go for it, what's stopping you?

AFO?, why should I be angry?, would you be?, not me. I am way beyond angry, I have long ago reached the level of just being totally STUNNED. It's actually, quite peaceful, I gave up twenty plus years of trying to commute and have moved to base, I bid the highest paying position my "juniority" can hold, I bid short call reserve for the higher pay grantee and last month I got paid a little over $800 an hour for the one trip I flew. AFO? hardly.

Attrition, hard to say how that will end up being doled out. In a handful of years the West will get it all in any event.

seajay

 

[biggie smalls]

We write to request that the Board transfer certification to represent the pilots and flight instructors of Continental Airlines and Continental Express for purposes of collective bargaining from the Independent Association of Continental Pilots ("IACP") to the Air Line Pilots Association ("ALPA"). The officers of both unions make this request pursuant to the terms of the Merger Agreement entered into by the parties. . . . The Agreement becomes effective on June 1, 2001. . . .




MM and fellow pilots..


April 1st marks the beginning of the term of office for your new PHL representatives. Your outgoing reps are taking it as the deadline for any last minute agenda that they want to advance prior to their departure. They, specifically John Dubarry, are calling for a special BPR meeting for March 29. You need to ask yourself, why call a meeting with an expansive agenda two days before your new choices take office? The agenda items are so vague they could take this headhunt of a meeting anywhere but it includes an officer and committee code of conduct review, in other words they are planning to pick off a few folks on their way out the door while they still have the chance. Those on the BPR who want to see us change course, PHX in particular (this should tell you all you need to know about our course by the way), understand that when the new PHL reps take office the chances of disrupting our efforts diminish significantly.


These same PHL reps recently made a serious mistake when they published a public recrimination of USAPA leadership that was written by the self proclaimed leader of Leonidas. The pilots literally pounded them with critical emails and phone calls for days for publishing such a irresponsible public response to internal problems. But they didn’t get the message that you have had enough of ALPA style smear campaigns. By the way, if you want to know who is really behind this next destructive effort, just look to the ALPA smear experts in PHL, Ciabattoni, Manear et al.


Now there are a number of reasons that you should be outraged at this slimy behavior, among them is the plain fact that you have elected new representatives, who will take office two days after this special meeting. The outgoing PHL reps are acting in complete ignorance of the fact that you have chosen new reps to make decisions on your behalf and it is they who will have to pick up the pieces in the wake of Doug, Roger and John’s parting rampage. Did they even bother to consult with the new reps about the destructive agenda – NO! - they do not give a damn about the choice you have made for representation, they are going to “represent” you whether you like it or not right up until the very last minute that they have the power to do so, blind to the fact that you disagree with their agenda.


Their defense is that they represent you to the last day in office but this is utter BS. The bald faced truth is that they have thus far failed in their effort to topple the goals that you have set and the leadership structure of the union, an effort that was in absolute disregard of your calls and emails to them telling them to knock it off just a few weeks ago. This disregard for your instructions to them continues and has reached new heights in the form of this special meeting.


As a prelude to this special BPR meeting John, Doug, and Roger have called a PHL base meeting for March 24th. This is not a coincidence, that meeting is sure to be stacked with their minority sycophants who will bring prepackaged resolutions that they will then be “forced” to take to the BPR meeting the following week. The great irony in this is that they will go to that meeting touting that you demanded that these resolutions be carried forward - resolutions that are sure to be aimed at those John, Doug, Roger, and PHX have it in for.


It is impossible to understand what is motivating the current PHL reps. What is clear is that, in vintage ALPA style, they have allowed this to all become very personal and in the process have likely led themselves to believe that they can work with PHX to settle their personal vendettas in exchange for a compromise on the seniority issue. The real problem is that as they do so they need to make commitments with those who want your seniority. So as they take their parting shots, they are willing to place our long term goals in jeopardy. This is, of course, shockingly naive and profoundly dangerous. They are playing with fire in an undeniably reckless fashion and if they aren’t stopped your seniority is going to be torched.


If you want to put an end to this nonsense there are a few things that you can do. Forward this letter to everyone you know, call and email every rep on the BPR as well as the officers for starters. The very most important thing you can do however is show up at the PHL base meeting on the 24th, bring as many people with you as you can so that you outnumber the sympathizers, then get yourselves and your compatriots to the BPR meeting on the 28th and 29th in CLT. Send a strong message that you have had it with this BS.

 

[Zone5]

We write to request that the Board transfer certification to represent the pilots and flight instructors of Continental Airlines and Continental Express for purposes of collective bargaining from the Independent Association of Continental Pilots ("IACP") to the Air Line Pilots Association ("ALPA"). The officers of both unions make this request pursuant to the terms of the Merger Agreement entered into by the parties. . . . The Agreement becomes effective on June 1, 2001. . . .



The parties have met all requirements under their Merger Agreement for transfer of certification. Consistent with their respective Constitutions and By-laws, the governing bodies of both unions have approved the Agreement, and the members of the IACP have voted by secret ballot to ratify it and transfer representation rights to ALPA. . . . Following the ratification vote, ALPA's Executive Board ratified the Merger Agreement on May 22, 2001.


ALPA's executive board agreed to represnt the very pilots who crossed the picket line alot of them are members in good standing of ALPA today!

Unbelievable! ALPA is nothing but a dues "whore".

seajay