US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

...
At that time the east hired or sent through recall class almost 1000 pilots...
Did the east grow that much, no. ...

Not sure how you come up with 1,000 pilots recalled. I can agree that the company went through 1,000 seniority numbers for recall but you have to realize that hundreds of pilots resigned. Attrition on the East has been caused by resignations too, perhaps equally as the effects of retirements and medicals. But now that we have hordes of pilots above the 63 year old mark we are in unchartered territory from the medical perspective. If I were management I would be taking a hard look at how much hiring and training is coming as a result of the looming East departures.

Regardless, any Westie that is looking over the fence of separate ops and is lusting after the movement... ah, never mind.

 

[Pi brat]

PI''s problem is he can't think too deep- after 25 years of being a robot in the right seat maybe that is what happens, brain turns to mush.
If PI would ever publish the seniority list from 2005 that would be a start- he hasn't (and won't because then his numbers could be verified )
PI thinks that because Monda moved up 900 numbers it is because of attirtion, which means PIT believes 900 have left the company. Sure dude, reality check on that.
The bottom line about 220 active pilots from the Nicolau award have left the company and Nicolau even references that on page 29 (I think) of the Nicolau award by stating 300 people have come in behind him since 2005.
At that time the east hired or sent through recall class almost 1000 pilots...
Did the east grow that much, no. But with the added 330's and 757's coupled with 25 E 190's it is evident that is where an additional 500 pilots were needed to crew the airplanes. Look at the east seniority list from 2011 and you will find about 615 pilots below Monda not listed as MIL, LOA, RET or FUR. Wow,, that is impressive growth at the expense of the west.
Now look at retirement dates on that same list, about 100 LOA93ers not listed as MED, FUR or LOA and are CAPTAINS will retire in 2013.

BOTOTM LINE: PI doesn't understand his own numbers.

You know I was kind of worried for a while that you could actually be that stupid, but now I know you are just yanking my chain. Nobody could be that stupid and find a plane, much less fly it.

Publish the list? I asked you to send me the list and you told me that would be stupid dangerous, and now you want me to post it? You cannot be looking at an accurate '05 list and come to the conclusions you have. Oh, wait a minute, it's you. If you would look at the two equipment bids I posted, you would see that they match the numbers I put out. It's all right there for you, many have told you that you are wrong, you just can't/won't accept it.

We are not talking about the Nic award. We are talking about May 19, 2005 vs. today, because that is the date YOU used. I asked you if you were sure, cleardirect and Jim gave you clues, but you pressed on. A ton of guys left before Nic cleaned up the list. The difference between May 2005 and today and the list Nic used and today is huge. How nice for the west guys that he probably nailed the low point for the east list.

Absent a merger windfall, how do you move up a seniority list except for attrition? The seniority fairy? In this example there is a tiny bit of active line position movement because for your benefit I took all sup. pilots, but otherwise you move up the list because people ahead of you leave. Simple, right? Growth doesn't not move you up the seniority list, it just improves you relative seniority. The numbers show Monda's rapid seniority list movement, raw and active. Except for maybe they top few guys we have all moved up the seniority list, with the bottom part moving up faster because a lot of the attrition came from F/Os. I know uyou guys say that doesn't count, but a guy ahead of you leaving is a guy leaving. Captain or F/O it's one less guy to wait to leave before you get what you want. I know you guys should move up the list faster because you're so great and all and shouldn't have to do all that waiting, but that's not how it works, unless you have St Nic, the seniority fairy.

Let me give you an example. For this example we are going to use 10 pilots per airplane.You fly for Awsum Dude Air. They have 1000 healthy 30 year olds on the seniority list. You are #550, 1 number away from captain. They operate 100 737s and then find another 10 in China to buy overnight. They hire another 100 pilots, so the list grows to 1100 and you get a captain bid. Did your number move up? No, but you advanced because of growth. Now, over at Great Guys Airline, they operate 100 737s with 1000 pilots in 2005. In 2006, because the CEO spends billions on a stock buy back, they have to sell 10 airplanes. No guys leave and 100 guys are furloughed. Billy Bob is #550, top F/O. Does his number change? No, but his relative position drops as guys downgrade on top of him. He is still #550 out of 900. The next year the airline takes 1 airplane back, but 200 guys retire. The airline now needs 910 pilots, but only have 700 on the property. They recall the 100 they furloughed, have to hire another 110 and Billy Bob has moved up to #350 and is now a 737 captain. The airline is still flying 9 fewer airplanes than they year before, it shrank. BB's raw seniority # and his relative position both went up due to.....................ATTRITION.

Does this help? If not there is always Sylvan.

 

[prechilill]

Blah blah blah... more nonsense from the high chair.

Look, it is impossible to have 1000 pilots leave the east list in a couple of years time, get it? So parroting numbers about Monda moving up 950 positions is total bs in the real world- you have no clue what you are looking at and that is why you and your buds are stuck in the corner. In fact, you will have a TOTAL of 109 pilots retire in 2013 who are not currently listed as FUR, LOA, MED. In 2007 you had about 90 pilots leave- see the trend? Probably not.

Answer this, if there was no growth (which means you are ignoring the 9 A330s, 5 or so 75s and a bunch of 190s), why did the company send over 1000 pilots through new hire ground school in two years?

Here is a hint: It certainly wasn't because 1000 pilots senior to Monda left the seniority list.

Just admit it, you are wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

If I may chime in on the "growth or no growth" debate.
I've been trying to keep up but it seems there are semantic differences in how each uses the numbers. So I won't go there.
What matters is this: today the West still has pilots on furlough whereas the East has enjoyed recalls and much upward seniority movement. As Nicolau stated, the East had/has more to gain from the merger than the West and this just affirms it. Of course, even this isn't enough for East. They want the West as their furlough-fodder as well (aka DOH).

It is and it isn't hard, it depends on how you look at it. I know what happened over here, I didn't need to go through all those numbers to find out. I did that because prechil put some ridiculous numbers out there, and when shown she was wrong not only refused to admit it, but hurled insults. As she continues to do. 9 out 10 of you guys would have said "Oh, I got it wrong, but let's look at 2006 or 2007 vs today". She isn't smart enough to do that.

There are a lot of terms and a lot of numbers. The east has had a massive number of furloughs, loas, military etc., but on whatever level you look at, the east list is smaller today than it was on May 19,2005-the date prechil used.

You stated "What matters is this:" I know it matters to you, your west brothers, and especially the ones that are furloughed. I really wish it was different, sincerely. I wish the entire airline was growing and PHX growing the most. That would solve a lot of our problems. The thing is, that's not the reality. We are shrinking, and Nicolau gave us a method for sharing the shrinking airline that the majority of the east pilots would not accept. It will be argued until we are all gone on whether that was fair/moral/ethical, but that is the reality we face. Coupled with that is a TA that calls for separate ops until we have a joint contract, so as we slog our fight through the courts, the company plays us, the way it has turned out is that the east got stuck with low pay and the west got stuck with more shrinkage with less attrition to ease the blow. And, IMHO,we are stuck here until the last legal battle is fought because I don't see anyone backing down. There could be some unknown event that will change everything.

It's the way it is and we all knew the risks when we refused to live by or alter the Nic, respectively.

 

[Hate2fly]

Not sure how you come up with 1,000 pilots recalled. I can agree that the company went through 1,000 seniority numbers for recall but you have to realize that hundreds of pilots resigned. Attrition on the East has been caused by resignations too, perhaps equally as the effects of retirements and medicals. But now that we have hordes of pilots above the 63 year old mark we are in unchartered territory from the medical perspective. If I were management I would be taking a hard look at how much hiring and training is coming as a result of the looming East departures.

Regardless, any Westie that is looking over the fence of separate ops and is lusting after the movement... ah, never mind.

Phoenix,

Doc. 96 says it all for the east. Separate ops and no merger timeline. ALPA president Prater answered all of the questions asked of him.

http://www.usairlinepilots.org/index.php?option=com_jumi&fileid=5&F=850

Hate

 

[Pi brat]

Blah blah blah... more nonsense from the high chair.

Look, it is impossible to have 1000 pilots leave the east list in a couple of years time, get it? So parroting numbers about Monda moving up 950 positions is total bs in the real world- you have no clue what you are looking at and that is why you and your buds are stuck in the corner. In fact, you will have a TOTAL of 109 pilots retire in 2013 who are not currently listed as FUR, LOA, MED. In 2007 you had about 90 pilots leave- see the trend? Probably not.

Answer this, if there was no growth (which means you are ignoring the 9 A330s, 5 or so 75s and a bunch of 190s), why did the company send over 1000 pilots through new hire ground school in two years?

Here is a hint: It certainly wasn't because 1000 pilots senior to Monda left the seniority list.

Just admit it, you are wrong.

Good Lord. Westies, you must be so proud. Please tell me she is not a captain and there is hope she can be fixed before that happens.

There has been no NET growth. Yes we took delivery of new A/C, you even forgot the A320s, but more airplanes left the fleet than entered. Back to that math thing. 270 on May 2005, 217 today. 217 is less than 270, so in a non bizarreooo world, that is not GROWTH. Less pilots today than in 2005 is not growth.

I guess even they simplified explanation was not simple enough for you. I give up, here ya go:

http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/find_a_center.cfm?cid=PBM-MEC-search-google-ppc-sl_find_center-1001&CFID=24344393&CFTOKEN=25447616

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is obvious you are still comparing apples to oranges. I don't have any idea who's right, but Prechil is obviously using the Nic list which has it origins from the certified lists on both sides. The East list, according to Nic, is for 5/1/2005 and I assume that the West list is the same if not based on the PID date of 5/19/2005. However, Nic updated the two lists to 1/1/2007 by removing from both those that had permanently left their airline - retirements, deaths, resignations - and for changes in status that had occurred - med, sup, mgt, furlough. In other words, he created certified lists as of 1/1/2007.

I assume PI is using the company 2005 list - produced in late 2004 after the last permanent bid with a 1/1/2005 effective date was awarded. That means that it was out of date by at least 6 months when the PID was established and 3 years out of date when Nic created the updated certified lists. So there is no surprise that the numbers vary widely - Nic's lists removed retirements in 2005 or 2006 while PI's 2005 list doesn't, for example.

The only thing that one can say for sure is that East has more active pilots that it would have had if the A332's, 3 757's, and 25 dropping to 15 E190's hadn't arrived.

In short, neither of you is necessarily wrong based on the data you each are using but one is talking about NYC while the other is talking about LA.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

It is obvious you are still comparing apples to oranges. I don't have any idea who's right, but Prechil is obviously using the Nic list which has it origins from the certified lists on both sides. The East list, according to Nic, is for 5/1/2005 and I assume that the West list is the same if not based on the PID date of 5/19/2005. However, Nic updated the two lists to 1/1/2007 by removing from both those that had permanently left their airline - retirements, deaths, resignations - and for changes in status that had occurred - med, sup, mgt, furlough. In other words, he created certified lists as of 1/1/2007.

I assume PI is using the company 2005 list - produced in late 2004 after the last permanent bid with a 1/1/2005 effective date was awarded. That means that it was out of date by at least 6 months when the PID was established and 3 years out of date when Nic created the updated certified lists. So there is no surprise that the numbers vary widely - Nic's lists removed retirements in 2005 or 2006 while PI's 2005 list doesn't, for example.

The only thing that one can say for sure is that East has more active pilots that it would have had if the A332's, 3 757's, and 25 dropping to 15 E190's hadn't arrived.

Jim

Jim,

You answered your own question. She said May 2005. The 2005 list is the only one that can be used, right? There is no May 19,2005 seniority list. As you said Nic cleaned up the list. Had she said today vs the nic or '06, or '07 we wouldn't be having this discussion. How many times have I said this in previous posts?

Bottom line: Pre said our seniority list had grown since May 19,2005. By any measure it has not. See the posts of her's I copied? See the claim that we had only 2200 active pilots in 2005? Remember that I asked you that, if by any reasonable definition,could that be right? I took out every possible non- line pilot and came up with 2933, the number that pretty much matches the number on the bid announcement covering that time frame. She is wrong with the parameters she used. PERIOD!

You have to go and add this:"The only thing that one can say for sure is that East has more active pilots that it would have had if the A332's, 3 757's, and 25 dropping to 15 E190's hadn't arrived." Well DUH, you mean that it takes more pilots to fly more airplanes? But you ignore the fact that except for the E190s, we had to have all but 2 of those A/C to stay above the min fleet. Or should USAPA just wave that and give them to the west? Besides, it has no bearing on THIS argument.

I have distilled this to the very simple item, you refuse to see it. I'M USING HER TERMS, IT'S NOT APPLES AND ORANGES NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry, dupe post...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

You answered your own question. She said May 2005. The 2005 list is the only one that can be used, right? There is no May 19,2005 seniority list.

No, it's not the only one that could be used, a list for any date could be produced - I've mentioned previously that every bid closing produces a seniority list for the last effective date of a bid. I don't know how the West does their bids - are they all effective on the 1st of a given month - but a 5/19/2005 list could be produced there also. So no, the company's 2005 seniority list is certainly not the only one that can be used. Except for the certified list, assuming one had access to that, it is all that is available to the pilot group, but not the only one available to the MC. The MC could work with resource planning to produce a list for any date you want.

Prechil mentioned looking at the Nic list, which was updated to 1/1/2007 as I said, you you are looking at a seniority list at least 2 years older than Prechil. Obviously 2005 and 2006 saw some relatively large changes, including retirements, which would not be shown on your 2005 list but would be reflected on Nic updated certified list.

So yes, apples and oranges...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

No, it's not the only one that could be used, a list for any date could be produced - I've mentioned previously that every bid closing produces a seniority list for the last effective date of a bid. I don't know how the West does their bids - are they all effective on the 1st of a given month - but a 5/19/2005 list could be produced there also. So no, the company's 2005 seniority list is certainly not the only one that can be used. Except for the certified list, assuming one had access to that, it is all that is available to the pilot group, but not the only one available to the MC. The MC could work with resource planning to produce a list for any date you want.

Prechil mentioned looking at the Nic list, which was updated to 1/1/2007 as I said, you you are looking at a seniority list at least 2 years older than Prechil. Obviously 2005 and 2006 saw some relatively large changes, including retirements, which would not be shown on your 2005 list but would be reflected on Nic updated certified list.

So yes, apples and oranges...

Jim

I repeatedly said I didn't have any '05 list, so how would I have some obscure list like that? Someone sent me the '05 list. But that doesn't matter and you are just being obtuse. The bid announcements alone prove she is wrong. We had more than 2200 "active pilots" on May 19, 2005 and our seniority list has shrunken since May 19, 2005, no matter what logical metric you use. Now if she said you the happy pilot roster has increased, I wouldn't have even attempted to discuss it with her.

Prechil mentioned a lot, but in my replies I quoted her original words, so even though you cannot admit it, it is not apples and oranges.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I repeatedly said I didn't have any '05 list, so how would I have some obscure list like that?

You wouldn't, but the Nic list is based on a 2005 list - May 1, 2005 - don't you have access to that? In the course of this running argument Prechil has mentioned the Nic list several times, so it shouldn't be too big a surprise that the 2005 Nic list was the 2005 list Prechil was talking about. All Prechil missed is the updating that Nic did to turn the lists into 1/1/2007 lists - not especially surprising since the one or two mentions of that is buried in the narrative of the Nic award.

You're the one who can't admit the possibility of error. I've explained that any comparison will be somewhat apples and oranges since you can't compare the identical data from each time. I've also explained that I don't have a current bid closing seniority list to compare to the same from May 2005. I don't even have a 2005 company seniority list to compare with the current one. Head count is not the same as active. But instead of accepting those facts, you just attack me for being "unable" to say a West pilot is wrong.

CRM must be non-existent on your flight with your "I'm always right" attitude.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

I see such irony in PI Brat; bash and insult Jim for a week yet demand his endorsement on the growth vs. no growth argument. Weird.

 

[Pi brat]

CRM must be non-existent on your flight with your "I'm always right" attitude.

Jim

You really shouldn't speak about what you don't know. You are a pretty smart guy, but not 1/10th as smart as you think you are.

2 questions-Does the 2011 east seniority list have fewer names than any list you can reference from 2005?
-Can you come up with any LOGICAL way of saying the east only had 2200 active(line flying) pilots in any of 2005?

I am not always right, I'm often wrong and when I am, unlike you, I say so. I'm not wrong about this. We can try to get in pre's head and arrive at her intent, keep doing it, too scary for me, but her WORDS are wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

I see such irony in PI Brat; bash and insult Jim for a week yet demand his endorsement on the growth vs. no growth argument. Weird.

Back when this started Jim and I were on better terms. No good, but better. I asked him because he had knowledge of the bid processing system. I didn't include him this time until he opened his mouth. When he does that, I will answer him.