US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

He was born with a spoon and has never left his high chair. Otherwise he and his buds are pretty entertaining around here

 

[Pi brat]

He was born with a spoon and has never left his high chair. Otherwise he and his buds are pretty entertaining around here

She was born ignorant with her head up her rear, and hasn't improved much. Your lack of comment on the FACTS is admission enough, thanks. You have a great night sweetie, go to bed and dream of the big jets!

 

[prechilill]

Lol!!! I will have a nice evening- the same to you!

 

[prechilill]

Lol!!! I will have a nice evening- the same to you!

 

[CactusPilot1]

The checks in the mail.

Mailing address.:

PO Box 3362
Tempe, AZ 85280

Thank you for your contribution

 

[BoeingBoy]

One has to wonder about posters using such a tactic

You've been using that tactic since you appeared on the forum - remember that "you are the company you keep" is your line. So you have the same shortcomings - say an unusual interest in what's up young ladies' skirts - as the company you keep.

Proof that you don't lie,Nos.

I know it's impossible for you to be a man and accept responsibility. So you'll keep getting the treatment you deserve.

Jim

 

[sumadarson]

You've been using that tactic since you appeared on the forum - remember that "you are the company you keep" is your line. So you have the same shortcomings - say an unusual interest in what's up young ladies' skirts - as the company you keep.

Proof that you don't lie,Nos.

I know it's impossible for you to be a man and accept responsibility. So you'll keep getting the treatment you deserve.

Jim

I have never used innocent young victims of abuse to further my points like you and jetz have. You crossed the line there.

 

[sumadarson]

Interesting March 2 ual pilot video on their progress for a cba. It is hauntingly parallel to the Usairways pilots situation. You can see the process stalling before your own eyes. Deja vu all over again as Yogi Berra used to say.

Usairways is mentioned in this video many times. With comments;

Usairways is a leisure market carrier.

Usairways can not afford to hedge fuel.

Usairways was the cause of the ual pilots transition agreements poor provisions.

ual pilots make 20 percent less than cal pilots.

ual pilots video

 

[BoeingBoy]

I have never used innocent young victims of abuse to further my points like you and jetz have. You crossed the line there.

Only because you didn't have a case from the West or myself to use. I have absolutely no doubt that you would have if you could. You have no qualms about the ammunition you use in your attacks.

Remember to study more for your next check ride - your pictures will wait...

Jim

 

[767jetz]

I have never used innocent young victims of abuse to further my points like you and jetz have. You crossed the line there.

No. You just falsely accuse others of being drug dealers and scabs to further your points. Yes that's much better. (Not that you actually have a point.)

Was Joe not convicted of the said offense?
Has USAPA done anything to remove him from the union?
Is USAPA protecting his job?
Are you part of USAPA?

At least these are actual facts that can be found as a matter of public record. And no one is using an innocent young victim. Has that victim even been brought up? No. We are using the perpetrator, Joe, a person who deserves no consideration whatsoever, to further our point. Big difference.

It does sound to me that YOU are using the innocent victim to hide behind and escape from your own egregious behavior. Why don't you leave her out of the conversation and address the charges against Joe and the union that is protecting him? You know, the union you are a part of.

By the way, what about those empty threats of yours? I'm still waiting to hear from my chief pilot or Smisek himself.

Nos: hiding from his actions behind an innocent young victim.

 

[nic4us]

The name of the alpo sec/treas at that time is Chris Beebe.

Regards,

Bob

Thanks,

The point in my original post was that the east had deeper relationships with ALPA national, and we all know how politics work, and the West was allowing the politics to play out.

National officers were putting pressure on West MEC members, voicing their opposition to the award, and generally taking the east's side. When, in all fairness, their only obligation was to "uphold and defend" the award. By promoting the east position and disregarding their own C&BLs, certain national officers were dangerously close to getting the association in very deep hot water. If I recall correctly, the executive cousel had to order Prater to present the list. Then that weasel sent Paul Rice in his stead.

Is Beebe still around?

 

[cleardirect]

Okay guys, prechil and I have had a long running (and boring to most) discussion about “east growth”.
Here is the post, #6003 on pg. 751 that started it:


The '11 east list has 3403 names. Again remove the non-line active, and you are left with 2582 active line pilots.
So, the total east seniority list has shrunk from 5861 to 3403, a decrease of 2458. The active list has shrunk from 2933 down to 2582, a decrease of 351. In both cases, the east list has SHRUNKEN, not grown.
I think, but I'm not sure as she wondered all over the place, that prechil was basing the “growth” on the fact that Monda had no active pilots below him on May 19, 2005, but now has around 609. That is true, but that is because we had more pilots leave the list than we shrunk positions. Had we stayed the same size as May 2005, Monda would now have around 960 below him!!!!!!!!!! They didn't all retire. They retired, died, resigned, took personal leave, got sick, went to be supervisors, took military leave, got furloughed, whatever.
Here's a few more things that I tried to point out to prechil by listing a bid from '05 vs '11. I think most west guys got it, even thought prechil claimed to have PM's supporting her claims.
On the bid for June '05 we had 1331 737 and larger captains and 1451 737 and larger F/Os.
On the bid for May '11 we had 1196 737 and larger captains and 1409 737 and larger F/Os.
So despite getting some 757s, A330s, and A320s, we now have 135 less 737 and larger captains than in '05 and 120 fewer 737 and larger F/Os. Even if you added in the EMB positions, that don't count towards min fleet, we would have fewer pilots now than then. We simply took out more airplanes from May '05 until now than we replaced, but more pilots left the property than we needed, so the east pilots moved up. That's what all this attrition talk has been about.
Also, when the west says that a lot of attrition will come from the F/O seat and that doesn't count? I have moved up around 600 active number since May' 05, Monda has move much more, around 960.
Does this put the “growth” from May '05 until today to rest?

First. Do you consider the 190’s pilots less of a pilot or not part of the east fleet? If not don’t make the distinction of 737 or larger. East pilots are flying those planes.

Total east captain including 190’s 1196
Total east F/O’s including 190’s 1412
From 2005 pre-merger difference in captains. 135.
Pre-merger F/O’s 39
Total 174 less active east pilots. (using your base line from 2005)
Would you like to take a guess at how much the west is down and who has taken the bigger hit as a percentage?

Second. You seem to think that removing the LTD, MED, MIL, ect. has some importance. If so I guess you would say that they also have no importance to your attrition either.

Using your numbers you say that the east has 3403 on the seniority list but only 2608 active pilots according to your last bid award. So 23.4% of your list is inactive. What is an inactive pilot’s attrition worth? I would say ZERO.

Looking at the raw numbers this is what we have.

Monda
AAA List 3176
Current 2592

Varini
AAA List 4951
Current 3306

Junior east pilot3403

From these numbers Monda moved up 584. Varini moved up 1645 or more accurately had 1061 of the 1700 people on furlough did not return. But Monda who was the junior pilot on the property at the time of the merger now has 811 pilots below him. 811 pilots that protect him from furlough that he did not have prior to the merger. Subtract the 584 that he moved up you still have 227 pilots that were not on the property at the merger. Dave Odell is on furlough now, Varini who was not even a mainline pilot and on furlough has 100 pilot below him.

This is all POST merger. Tell the west pilots how this is right or fair?

 

[nic4us]

Okay guys, prechil and I have had a long running (and boring to most) discussion about “east growth”.
Here is the post, #6003 on pg. 751 that started it:

“Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!

Give us C & Rs which keeps all flying in PHX at least static, plus add in any additional flying and that is reasonable to everyone. Currently, the C&R protections are so poor that the easties refuse to even consider using them with Nicolau! Talk about hypocrites...
The east's motifs are so transparent.
LOA 93 observer”

I countered that the east has not “grown” since May 19, 2005, as a matter of fact it has shrunk in total size. She wouldn't have it, despite showing her our bids. I finally got a copy of the '05 east seniority list and took a look at some numbers. I have no idea where pre got her's, but I think these show she was waaaaaay off.

Before I start, here are a few more choice quotes from her:

"Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots. Then go look at the active pilots for the March 2011 seniority list- it has grown by 600. 'Splain that Einstein...

Also, take a closer look at you bid package from May 2005 and compare it to the seniority list of May 2005- The numbers are far from matching. So, where is the problem? It's right there! You are assuming "A head count" is the same as "active pilots". It is not the same as "active pilots". You can look at your linked seniority list and see that just by comparing the number of people on each listed counted as LOA, medical or leave status. misinterpreting what "head count" is. You assume it means active pilots and that, dude, is a big assumption. I seriously doubt seniority lists could be in error by 500 people. Besides, if you take your "head count" number as actual active pilots flying your airline was short 500 people.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE DUDE
LOA 93 observer"

(I guess it never occurred to her that the list she was looking at was wrong)

"I swear you have got to be the best dancer around- I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth? "

So, just to recap since there were so many Dudes and Einsteins in there, she claimed that:
-the east seniority list GREW by 700 numbers since May '07
-the east had only 2200 “active” pilots in May '05
-she used Monda as proof.

Now, I came up with some drastically different numbers. The numbers may be off by a few due to running through over a hundred pages of bids, but they are very close. Here's what I got:

The '05 east list has 5861 names. If your remove non-line pilots(sick, med, sup, ret, term, resign, mil, personal, etc) you are left with 2933 active line pilots(I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, sup pilots are line pilots, but sure are still active). Monda was the last pilot not furloughed and his active position was.....2933. So that blows the 2200 “active pilots” number right out of the water.

The '11 east list has 3403 names. Again remove the non-line active, and you are left with 2582 active line pilots.
So, the total east seniority list has shrunk from 5861 to 3403, a decrease of 2458. The active list has shrunk from 2933 down to 2582, a decrease of 351. In both cases, the east list has SHRUNKEN, not grown.
I think, but I'm not sure as she wondered all over the place, that prechil was basing the “growth” on the fact that Monda had no active pilots below him on May 19, 2005, but now has around 609. That is true, but that is because we had more pilots leave the list than we shrunk positions. Had we stayed the same size as May 2005, Monda would now have around 960 below him!!!!!!!!!! They didn't all retire. They retired, died, resigned, took personal leave, got sick, went to be supervisors, took military leave, got furloughed, whatever.
Here's a few more things that I tried to point out to prechil by listing a bid from '05 vs '11. I think most west guys got it, even thought prechil claimed to have PM's supporting her claims.
On the bid for June '05 we had 1331 737 and larger captains and 1451 737 and larger F/Os.
On the bid for May '11 we had 1196 737 and larger captains and 1409 737 and larger F/Os.
So despite getting some 757s, A330s, and A320s, we now have 135 less 737 and larger captains than in '05 and 120 fewer 737 and larger F/Os. Even if you added in the EMB positions, that don't count towards min fleet, we would have fewer pilots now than then. We simply took out more airplanes from May '05 until now than we replaced, but more pilots left the property than we needed, so the east pilots moved up. That's what all this attrition talk has been about.
Also, when the west says that a lot of attrition will come from the F/O seat and that doesn't count? I have moved up around 600 active number since May' 05, Monda has move much more, around 960.
Does this put the “growth” from May '05 until today to rest?

I know you must have done considerable work here, but the problem is your numbers are not jiving with the Nicolau seniority list.

On the Nic, Monda's raw east number is shown as 29?? (i think 2942 I don't have it in front of me) That number would include inactive pilots above him at the PID, and is strikingly similar to the 2933 total active pilots you computed.

The problem we might be having is, when was the PID, and to compare apples to apples, we should compare the certified lists that were given to Nicolau. Was the June 2005 east list the certified list?

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA's Cleary and Mowrey on the Seniority Rights of Furloughees

See Story

 

[Pi brat]

First. Do you consider the 190’s pilots less of a pilot or not part of the east fleet? If not don’t make the distinction of 737 or larger. East pilots are flying those planes.

Total east captain including 190’s 1196
Total east F/O’s including 190’s 1412
From 2005 pre-merger difference in captains. 135.
Pre-merger F/O’s 39
Total 174 less active east pilots. (using your base line from 2005)
Would you like to take a guess at how much the west is down and who has taken the bigger hit as a percentage?

Second. You seem to think that removing the LTD, MED, MIL, ect. has some importance. If so I guess you would say that they also have no importance to your attrition either.

Using your numbers you say that the east has 3403 on the seniority list but only 2608 active pilots according to your last bid award. So 23.4% of your list is inactive. What is an inactive pilot’s attrition worth? I would say ZERO.

Looking at the raw numbers this is what we have.

Monda
AAA List 3176
Current 2592

Varini
AAA List 4951
Current 3306

Junior east pilot3403

From these numbers Monda moved up 584. Varini moved up 1645 or more accurately had 1061 of the 1700 people on furlough did not return. But Monda who was the junior pilot on the property at the time of the merger now has 811 pilots below him. 811 pilots that protect him from furlough that he did not have prior to the merger. Subtract the 584 that he moved up you still have 227 pilots that were not on the property at the merger. Dave Odell is on furlough now, Varini who was not even a mainline pilot and on furlough has 100 pilot below him.

This is all POST merger. Tell the west pilots how this is right or fair?

OMG, over and over I have to school you.

Try reading it again, in the context of what prechil was saying! You so easily get lost, just like with the AWA profit thing where I have had to correct you over and over again.

The difference in east and west lies with attrition and the TA. You guys decided the Nic was worth going to the wall for-live with it.

If I feel like it I will explain it to you tomorrow.