US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

USAPA's Cleary and Mowrey on the Seniority Rights of Furloughees

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You have posted this before. Are you running out of material? Highlight the Huges-Republic section.

 

[nic4us]

This is all POST merger. Tell the west pilots how this is right or fair?

Better yet, explain how forcing seperate ops to steal something that was not granted in the process, so that pilots that were employed pre-merger, have been replaced in the merged company by pilots that were not employed, (and at this point were not even hired yet!!!) is not JOB THEFT!

 

[Pi brat]

I know you must have done considerable work here, but the problem is your numbers are not jiving with the Nicolau seniority list.

On the Nic, Monda's raw east number is shown as 29?? (i think 2942 I don't have it in front of me) That number would include inactive pilots above him at the PID, and is strikingly similar to the 2933 total active pilots you computed.

The problem we might be having is, when was the PID, and to compare apples to apples, we should compare the certified lists that were given to Nicolau. Was the June 2005 east list the certified list?

It's no problem at all nic. Prechil used the date May 19, 2005 and she set the parameters. THAT'S ONE OF MY BIG POINTS! Had she used other dates it would be different. The PID date was not May 19, 2005, was it? She was wrong, period.

Does anyone pay attention?

 

[Pi brat]

Better yet, explain how forcing seperate ops to steal something that was not granted in the process, so that pilots that were employed pre-merger, have been replaced in the merged company by pilots that were not employed, (and at this point were not even hired yet!!!) is not JOB THEFT!

You know nic, saying something over and over again doesn't make it so. Separate ops was always and option under the TA. As I told CD, you guys decided going to the wall for Nic was worth it, live with it!

 

[cleardirect]

OMG, over and over I have to school you.

Try reading it again, in the context of what prechil was saying! You so easily get lost, just like with the AWA profit thing where I have had to correct you over and over again.

The difference in east and west lies with attrition and the TA. You guys decided the Nic was worth going to the wall for-live with it.

If I feel like it I will explain it to you tomorrow.

Attrition? 25% of your list is not worth anything. They are not active pilots so when they leave nothing opens up. They just leave.

Are my numbers wrong? I based them on yours.

 

[nic4us]

The difference in east and west lies with attrition and the TA. You guys decided the Nic was worth going to the wall for-live with it.

The majority of West attrition seems to come off the bottom of our list, so that your furloughees can steal their jobs.

You guys decided the Nic was not worth a joint contract and decided to remain on LOA93 in perpetuity instead,,,,oh,,wait,,usapa is trying to renege on that deal also.

 

[Pi brat]

Attrition? 25% of your list is not worth anything. They are not active pilots so when they leave nothing opens up. They just leave.

Are my numbers wrong? I based them on yours.

Go back and read the post, then read it again, and see if you can get it.

If so much of our attrition is worthless, how did I go from mid level F/O to captain,while we have fewer total positions and airplanes, and Monda is now almost in my exact spot from 2005?

It's not rocket science, if you will not spend all your time trying to figure out how unfair it is and just read! Take the victim glasses off!

 

[Pi brat]

The majority of West attrition seems to come off the bottom of our list, so that your furloughees can steal their jobs.

You guys decided the Nic was not worth a joint contract and decided to remain on LOA93 in perpetuity instead,,,,oh,,wait,,usapa is trying to renege on that deal also.

There is not a single east pilot flying a west airplane and absent that your continuous whine of theft does not make it so.

 

[nic4us]

It's no problem at all nic. Prechil used the date May 19, 2005 and she set the parameters. THAT'S ONE OF MY BIG POINTS! Had she used other dates it would be different. The PID date was not May 19, 2005, was it? She was wrong, period.

Does anyone pay attention?

I am not trying to defend prechill. I have been following the subject, because I want to know how much each side shrank.

To me it looks like Cleardirect's numbers are the most accurate, and the east is down 174, (I would have liked to have seen him post the West's number), but, I would venture to guess the west is down close to double that.

 

[nic4us]

There is not a single east pilot flying a west airplane and absent that your continuous whine of theft does not make it so.

It has been so long, perhaps you have forgotten that a merger took place 6 years ago.

The idea of a merger and single carrier status, is to have one airline. There may not be any east pilots flying West airplanes, but there are many hundreds of east pilots flying unprotected N numbers for LCC, while LLC pilots that are senior to them are furloughed.

PS. There is not a single West pilot flying an "east route" and the constant whinning from the east does not make it so.

 

[Pi brat]

First. Do you consider the 190’s pilots less of a pilot or not part of the east fleet? If not don’t make the distinction of 737 or larger. East pilots are flying those planes.

Total east captain including 190’s 1196
Total east F/O’s including 190’s 1412
From 2005 pre-merger difference in captains. 135.
Pre-merger F/O’s 39
Total 174 less active east pilots. (using your base line from 2005)
Would you like to take a guess at how much the west is down and who has taken the bigger hit as a percentage?

Second. You seem to think that removing the LTD, MED, MIL, ect. has some importance. If so I guess you would say that they also have no importance to your attrition either.

Using your numbers you say that the east has 3403 on the seniority list but only 2608 active pilots according to your last bid award. So 23.4% of your list is inactive. What is an inactive pilot’s attrition worth? I would say ZERO.

Looking at the raw numbers this is what we have.

Monda
AAA List 3176
Current 2592

Varini
AAA List 4951
Current 3306

Junior east pilot3403

From these numbers Monda moved up 584. Varini moved up 1645 or more accurately had 1061 of the 1700 people on furlough did not return. But Monda who was the junior pilot on the property at the time of the merger now has 811 pilots below him. 811 pilots that protect him from furlough that he did not have prior to the merger. Subtract the 584 that he moved up you still have 227 pilots that were not on the property at the merger. Dave Odell is on furlough now, Varini who was not even a mainline pilot and on furlough has 100 pilot below him.

This is all POST merger. Tell the west pilots how this is right or fair?

On second thought I will answer you now.

My post was based on what prechil said about May 19, 2005 and growth from there. She was wrong, she wouldn't admit it and after I got a 2005 seniority list I showed her.

So, about the 190s. I flew the airplane, so I do not think the pilots are lesser for flying it. The 190 pilots are some of the hardest working pilots at this company. Compared to the A320 the thing is a steam locomotive to get going, and IMHO a general POS. The reason I excluded it was be IT WAS EXCLUDED FROM THE MIN FLEET AND FOR GOOD REASON- THE PAY. But, you concede that even counting what was not to be counted we have fewer pilots today than 2005-that would be NO GROWTH.

For this exercise, I couldn't care less how much the west is down, because it has no relevance to the argument. I'd love for the west to be up, it would help keep the majority of you in PHX where I don't want to be.

I removed all those pilots to give prechil the benefit of the doubt and get a number as close to her's as possible. Remember I said" (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, sup pilots are not line pilots, but sure are still active)" Even doing that she was no where near correct.

As far as the rest of the numbers go, as I said that is a factor of east attrition and separate ops. How many times have I heard "enjoy LOA 93!"? My post shows the flip side of the east "enjoying" LOA 93. But you guys want it all. You want a raise and you want to take east seats. One day you may get to do that, but not anytime soon.

Had pre used PID vs today the picture would have been different. You and Jim kind of pointed that out to her, but she couldn't pull her head out long enough to stop insulting me and listen. Remember the silver spoon and Daddy comments? Would you like to tell her she was wrong?

p.s. I left out the "not" about the sup pilots on the original post and corrected it

 

[Pi brat]

It has been so long, perhaps you have forgotten that a merger took place 6 years ago.

The idea of a merger and single carrier status, is to have one airline. There may not be any east pilots flying West airplanes, but there are many hundreds of east pilots flying unprotected N numbers for LCC, while LLC pilots that are senior to them are furloughed.

PS. There is not a single West pilot flying an "east route" and the constant whinning from the east does not make it so.

I guess that is why Doug is chomping at the bit to get a joint contract, put the Nic in place and move on, right? Oh no, wait a minute..............

There are no LLC pilots furloughed that are senior to flying LCC pilots. Per the TA separate ops, hence separate seniority lists rule until there is a joint contract. It didn't say "Unless the west doesn't like it or if the west doesn't think its fair".

As far as the routes go, I agree, they belong to the new US Airways and are distributed according to the TA, at least when the company decides it fits them, but that is the company and not east pilots doing that.

 

[prechilill]

PI''s problem is he can't think too deep- after 25 years of being a robot in the right seat maybe that is what happens, brain turns to mush.
If PI would ever publish the seniority list from 2005 that would be a start- he hasn't (and won't because then his numbers could be verified )
PI thinks that because Monda moved up 900 numbers it is because of attirtion, which means PIT believes 900 have left the company. Sure dude, reality check on that.
The bottom line about 220 active pilots from the Nicolau award have left the company and Nicolau even references that on page 29 (I think) of the Nicolau award by stating 300 people have come in behind him since 2005.
At that time the east hired or sent through recall class almost 1000 pilots...
Did the east grow that much, no. But with the added 330's and 757's coupled with 25 E 190's it is evident that is where an additional 500 pilots were needed to crew the airplanes. Look at the east seniority list from 2011 and you will find about 615 pilots below Monda not listed as MIL, LOA, RET or FUR. Wow,, that is impressive growth at the expense of the west.
Now look at retirement dates on that same list, about 100 LOA93ers not listed as MED, FUR or LOA and are CAPTAINS will retire in 2013.

BOTOTM LINE: PI doesn't understand his own numbers.

 

[exB717Flyer]

If I may chime in on the "growth or no growth" debate.
I've been trying to keep up but it seems there are semantic differences in how each uses the numbers. So I won't go there.
What matters is this: today the West still has pilots on furlough whereas the East has enjoyed recalls and much upward seniority movement. As Nicolau stated, the East had/has more to gain from the merger than the West and this just affirms it. Of course, even this isn't enough for East. They want the West as their furlough-fodder as well (aka DOH).

 

[luvthe9]

If I may chime in on the "growth or no growth" debate.
I've been trying to keep up but it seems there are semantic differences in how each uses the numbers. So I won't go there.
What matters is this: today the West still has pilots on furlough whereas the East has enjoyed recalls and much upward seniority movement. As Nicolau stated, the East had/has more to gain from the merger than the West and this just affirms it. Of course, even this isn't enough for East. They want the West as their furlough-fodder as well (aka DOH).
[/quote
Hence the warning at Wye River from Freund, who clearly understood an internal union dispute. 'ALL THE RISK LIES WITH THE WEST...." You should see all the guys going out on medical, and thinking of early out. That, coupled with the over 60 issue on international is going to crank the hiring on the east through the roof!