prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
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That is quite a compliment, thank you!
US Pilots Labor Discussion
- Thread starter Richard
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That is quite a compliment, thank you!
Good idea, just have one more.
sumadarson
Veteran
- Nov 17, 2010
- 851
- 905
ual pilots update; March 05
""The JNC and Management met this week under the supervision of our assigned NMB mediator. Management wanted to continue discussions on scheduling and work rules with respect to Sections 5, 20 and 22. This week, unlike in the prior sessions, these discussions included not only the subject matter experts (SMEs) but also the management negotiators. In addition, while prior discussions focused on JNC’s proposals, this week focused on management’s proposals. The JNC believes these discussions will be beneficial to the process. In frank discussions, your JNC made clear the full flavor of the expectations of the JNC and our pilot group in the scheduling sections. Management is still working on their counter proposals to our scheduling proposals.
Additionally this week, management passed proposals on Section 6 – Seniority and Section 10 – Moving. The JNC returned counter proposals the same day. The Parties have narrowed each of these down to one item each and are continuing to work on these two Sections throughout the weekend.""
I wonder how the seniority section proposal is going over at the united airlines pilots negotiations table.
""The JNC and Management met this week under the supervision of our assigned NMB mediator. Management wanted to continue discussions on scheduling and work rules with respect to Sections 5, 20 and 22. This week, unlike in the prior sessions, these discussions included not only the subject matter experts (SMEs) but also the management negotiators. In addition, while prior discussions focused on JNC’s proposals, this week focused on management’s proposals. The JNC believes these discussions will be beneficial to the process. In frank discussions, your JNC made clear the full flavor of the expectations of the JNC and our pilot group in the scheduling sections. Management is still working on their counter proposals to our scheduling proposals.
Additionally this week, management passed proposals on Section 6 – Seniority and Section 10 – Moving. The JNC returned counter proposals the same day. The Parties have narrowed each of these down to one item each and are continuing to work on these two Sections throughout the weekend.""
I wonder how the seniority section proposal is going over at the united airlines pilots negotiations table.
Okay guys, prechil and I have had a long running (and boring to most) discussion about “east growth”.
Here is the post, #6003 on pg. 751 that started it:
“Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!
Give us C & Rs which keeps all flying in PHX at least static, plus add in any additional flying and that is reasonable to everyone. Currently, the C&R protections are so poor that the easties refuse to even consider using them with Nicolau! Talk about hypocrites...
The east's motifs are so transparent.
LOA 93 observer”
I countered that the east has not “grown” since May 19, 2005, as a matter of fact it has shrunk in total size. She wouldn't have it, despite showing her our bids. I finally got a copy of the '05 east seniority list and took a look at some numbers. I have no idea where pre got her's, but I think these show she was waaaaaay off.
Before I start, here are a few more choice quotes from her:
"Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots. Then go look at the active pilots for the March 2011 seniority list- it has grown by 600. 'Splain that Einstein...
Also, take a closer look at you bid package from May 2005 and compare it to the seniority list of May 2005- The numbers are far from matching. So, where is the problem? It's right there! You are assuming "A head count" is the same as "active pilots". It is not the same as "active pilots". You can look at your linked seniority list and see that just by comparing the number of people on each listed counted as LOA, medical or leave status. misinterpreting what "head count" is. You assume it means active pilots and that, dude, is a big assumption. I seriously doubt seniority lists could be in error by 500 people. Besides, if you take your "head count" number as actual active pilots flying your airline was short 500 people.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE DUDE
LOA 93 observer"
(I guess it never occurred to her that the list she was looking at was wrong)
"I swear you have got to be the best dancer around- I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth? "
So, just to recap since there were so many Dudes and Einsteins in there, she claimed that:
-the east seniority list GREW by 700 numbers since May '07
-the east had only 2200 “active” pilots in May '05
-she used Monda as proof.
Now, I came up with some drastically different numbers. The numbers may be off by a few due to running through over a hundred pages of bids, but they are very close. Here's what I got:
The '05 east list has 5861 names. If your remove non-line pilots(sick, med, sup, ret, term, resign, mil, personal, etc) you are left with 2933 active line pilots(I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, sup pilots are line pilots, but sure are still active). Monda was the last pilot not furloughed and his active position was.....2933. So that blows the 2200 “active pilots” number right out of the water.
The '11 east list has 3403 names. Again remove the non-line active, and you are left with 2582 active line pilots.
So, the total east seniority list has shrunk from 5861 to 3403, a decrease of 2458. The active list has shrunk from 2933 down to 2582, a decrease of 351. In both cases, the east list has SHRUNKEN, not grown.
I think, but I'm not sure as she wondered all over the place, that prechil was basing the “growth” on the fact that Monda had no active pilots below him on May 19, 2005, but now has around 609. That is true, but that is because we had more pilots leave the list than we shrunk positions. Had we stayed the same size as May 2005, Monda would now have around 960 below him!!!!!!!!!! They didn't all retire. They retired, died, resigned, took personal leave, got sick, went to be supervisors, took military leave, got furloughed, whatever.
Here's a few more things that I tried to point out to prechil by listing a bid from '05 vs '11. I think most west guys got it, even thought prechil claimed to have PM's supporting her claims.
On the bid for June '05 we had 1331 737 and larger captains and 1451 737 and larger F/Os.
On the bid for May '11 we had 1196 737 and larger captains and 1409 737 and larger F/Os.
So despite getting some 757s, A330s, and A320s, we now have 135 less 737 and larger captains than in '05 and 120 fewer 737 and larger F/Os. Even if you added in the EMB positions, that don't count towards min fleet, we would have fewer pilots now than then. We simply took out more airplanes from May '05 until now than we replaced, but more pilots left the property than we needed, so the east pilots moved up. That's what all this attrition talk has been about.
Also, when the west says that a lot of attrition will come from the F/O seat and that doesn't count? I have moved up around 600 active number since May' 05, Monda has move much more, around 960.
Does this put the “growth” from May '05 until today to rest?
Here is the post, #6003 on pg. 751 that started it:
“Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!
Give us C & Rs which keeps all flying in PHX at least static, plus add in any additional flying and that is reasonable to everyone. Currently, the C&R protections are so poor that the easties refuse to even consider using them with Nicolau! Talk about hypocrites...
The east's motifs are so transparent.
LOA 93 observer”
I countered that the east has not “grown” since May 19, 2005, as a matter of fact it has shrunk in total size. She wouldn't have it, despite showing her our bids. I finally got a copy of the '05 east seniority list and took a look at some numbers. I have no idea where pre got her's, but I think these show she was waaaaaay off.
Before I start, here are a few more choice quotes from her:
"Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots. Then go look at the active pilots for the March 2011 seniority list- it has grown by 600. 'Splain that Einstein...
Also, take a closer look at you bid package from May 2005 and compare it to the seniority list of May 2005- The numbers are far from matching. So, where is the problem? It's right there! You are assuming "A head count" is the same as "active pilots". It is not the same as "active pilots". You can look at your linked seniority list and see that just by comparing the number of people on each listed counted as LOA, medical or leave status. misinterpreting what "head count" is. You assume it means active pilots and that, dude, is a big assumption. I seriously doubt seniority lists could be in error by 500 people. Besides, if you take your "head count" number as actual active pilots flying your airline was short 500 people.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE DUDE
LOA 93 observer"
(I guess it never occurred to her that the list she was looking at was wrong)
"I swear you have got to be the best dancer around- I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth? "
So, just to recap since there were so many Dudes and Einsteins in there, she claimed that:
-the east seniority list GREW by 700 numbers since May '07
-the east had only 2200 “active” pilots in May '05
-she used Monda as proof.
Now, I came up with some drastically different numbers. The numbers may be off by a few due to running through over a hundred pages of bids, but they are very close. Here's what I got:
The '05 east list has 5861 names. If your remove non-line pilots(sick, med, sup, ret, term, resign, mil, personal, etc) you are left with 2933 active line pilots(I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, sup pilots are line pilots, but sure are still active). Monda was the last pilot not furloughed and his active position was.....2933. So that blows the 2200 “active pilots” number right out of the water.
The '11 east list has 3403 names. Again remove the non-line active, and you are left with 2582 active line pilots.
So, the total east seniority list has shrunk from 5861 to 3403, a decrease of 2458. The active list has shrunk from 2933 down to 2582, a decrease of 351. In both cases, the east list has SHRUNKEN, not grown.
I think, but I'm not sure as she wondered all over the place, that prechil was basing the “growth” on the fact that Monda had no active pilots below him on May 19, 2005, but now has around 609. That is true, but that is because we had more pilots leave the list than we shrunk positions. Had we stayed the same size as May 2005, Monda would now have around 960 below him!!!!!!!!!! They didn't all retire. They retired, died, resigned, took personal leave, got sick, went to be supervisors, took military leave, got furloughed, whatever.
Here's a few more things that I tried to point out to prechil by listing a bid from '05 vs '11. I think most west guys got it, even thought prechil claimed to have PM's supporting her claims.
On the bid for June '05 we had 1331 737 and larger captains and 1451 737 and larger F/Os.
On the bid for May '11 we had 1196 737 and larger captains and 1409 737 and larger F/Os.
So despite getting some 757s, A330s, and A320s, we now have 135 less 737 and larger captains than in '05 and 120 fewer 737 and larger F/Os. Even if you added in the EMB positions, that don't count towards min fleet, we would have fewer pilots now than then. We simply took out more airplanes from May '05 until now than we replaced, but more pilots left the property than we needed, so the east pilots moved up. That's what all this attrition talk has been about.
Also, when the west says that a lot of attrition will come from the F/O seat and that doesn't count? I have moved up around 600 active number since May' 05, Monda has move much more, around 960.
Does this put the “growth” from May '05 until today to rest?
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Whatever, PI. And thanks for the compliment. Really. All I know is that I never targeted you personally. My cross hairs were on one and only one person.
You were the one who came running to his defense saying it was because I slandered "your group." I think I made my intention and meaning clear by now to you. If you're still offended then I'm very sorry. But I'm done with this back and forth. I'm not even looking for any apology or for you to admit anything. I don't care. All I ask is that in the future you try to hold EVERYONE to the same standard, and refrain from jumping on me for defending myself with a little just desserts. I'll extend the same to you.
Fair enough?
N924PS
Veteran
- May 9, 2004
- 2,036
- 1,529
This has got to be one of the most hilarious posts I've ever read on this forum.
In reviewing your history of posts, most of which were sophomoric and petty beyond belief, now you tell us you went to Test Pilot School at Edwards AFB? I am shocked since I always presumed someone with such a credential was presumed to be mature, exhibit uncanny judgment and airmanship, and be able to write critically and cogently.
Geez, you crack me up Mikey!!!!
prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
- 3,406
Somebody is sounding like a broken record around here... I think we've found the next EastUS around here
sumadarson
Veteran
- Nov 17, 2010
- 851
- 905
This is the post page when jetz decided to use heinous crimes against victims to further his cause. On the same page boeing boy decided to hurl an insult using the plight of the innocent to further his. Pathetic.
One has to wonder about posters using such a tactic,, that have no dog in this fight except protecting alpa interests.
Jetz accusation
One has to wonder about posters using such a tactic,, that have no dog in this fight except protecting alpa interests.
Jetz accusation
The checks in the mail.
There's the admission of ignorance, arrogance and total lack of math and reasoning skills I was expecting! I hope you do get to come east, maybe you can learn more than you have from your west buddies!
No I visited once and I absorbed a lot while I was there. What a god awful place.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Awe... Gee, look who's back.
Let's see. The entire update shows your last contention that UA and ALPA are making no progress is blown out of the water. The NMB is involved and significant progress has already been made. Sit back, watch, and learn how a contract is negotiated. No more parity +1% for you anymore. This time you are going to have to WORK for your contract.
As for section 6, seniority, did you not read your own post? It has been narrowed down to one item that will probably be resolved this weekend. Section 6 is pretty simple and has little to do with the SLI process. As you should know by know (but perhaps you don't), SLI does not even start until a contract is ratified. Once that happens the clock starts on a specific timeline leading to final and binding arbitration, and the Merger Committee can start it's work. Can't wait to prove you wrong on that one as well.
Glad to see your obsession has emerged from the last few days unscathed.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
My, my you've become bitter. Or have you always been that way? Never mind.
Good riddance indeed.
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