US Pilots Labor Discussion

[flypg]

I got baited this morning and bit, then spanked. My bad for falling for it. I have no idea how the threats against you were not noticed. I realize the moderators can't read all the posts but was thinking at the very least would be reported.

I've hired two attorneys and document everything since RICO charges were filed against my fellow pilots. I find it very interesting that people who screamed bloody murder about doggy doo being some kind of threat are the very people threatening to dance on your grave. The same people who threatened me in the past few days.

My legal guns are loaded and waiting to be fired if needed.

hahahaha.

 

[D Summons a Seagull]

Let me give you the highlight reel:

On the '05 list Monda was #3537-604 non-line=#2933 active line pilot
On the '11 list Monda was #2592-619 non-line=#1973 active line pilot

So his raw movement was up 945 numbers, net 960 active line pilots.

On the seniority list that is being used today, I am junior to no west pilots.

So now you are saying 1000 pilots left the company? LOL
You are funny!

This is exactly why the West is so bent on getting the Nic Windfall. There bottom guy furloughed would have now almost 1000 pilots beneath him by the end of this year, all the while the East is at min fleet. Around 1000 positions have been added since 2005 to fill pilots leaving. This attrition is due to retirements especially prior to to the age change, resignations and especially LTD and pilots not coming back from vol. leave. The number of active positions has not gone up since 2005. Talked to many new hires and there thinking is they will move up much faster with the West being separate. Who would want 1600 pilots put ahead of them. Especially when those jobs are in PHX.

 

[flypg]

You just won't give it up, will you? Go look at the east seniority list on Wings... Count the names and then look at how many you had in 2005.
Did you even go to college? I know you were hired young and had a lot in life laid out for you (thanks Dad!) but really, can you even count? Can you not look at a seniority list and count down from Monda? If you can count to 600 you will get close to the answer.
So now, tell us again you had 600 guys senior to Monda retire in two years to keep the east in a state of "zero growth"

Tuts, you still not getting to phl anytime soon.

 

[Zone5]

Does anybody have a copy of the proposed USAPA DOH seniority list?

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Does anybody have a copy of the proposed USAPA DOH seniority list?

seajay

I haven't seen one, but it sounds like the list is straight DOH with "protections" for the West from a few meager C&R's.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

I haven't seen one, but it sounds like the list is straight DOH with "protections" for the West from a few meager C&R's.

Jim

Me neither. I would like to take a look at what the actual list would look like today. Much like the NIC, that everyone on the East "fears" so much (which in reality is outdated), perhaps a look at what a straight DOH bid would really look like (without the widebody accommodation) might be worthwhile.

I've been advocating for a "trial" permanent bid utilizing the NIC for quite some time now and it might be educational to do the same thing using a strict DOH model also.

A little bit of knowledge can often clarify a lot of fear. There is no reason why the C&R's have to be "meager".

seajay

 

[Pi brat]

But when others start with the lynch mob mentality, no one should be surprised when we respond in kind.

I couldn't care less how you respond to Nos, but when you start throwing at the whole group, one that I'm a part of, I have an issue. Especially when people are throwing child predator remarks around.

Do you remember when someone, maybe Nos, was talking abut the west being thieves and I said they weren't, they didn't steal anything? I replied to that because the west is always throwing the theft around, I don't like it, and thought it needed to be addressed. Not of what Nos posted I didn't think needed to be addressed, at least not by me.

 

[Pi brat]

One west guy had it right from the very beginning.

Yeah, I know of one that did. He was falsely accused, so he became a MIGS, and faced his accusers face to face and explained the truth. He so impressed them that they released him from the suit, I believe without him directly asking to be released. He then educated a lot of east guys about what the C18 was really about. In doing so, he won the admiration of many east pilots. I think you might know that guy.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Me neither. I would like to take a look at what the actual list would look like today.

The list itself, if it is indeed straight DOH, isn't that hard to figure out - at least in general terms. A lot of West captains would have mid and lower F/O seniority, many of the former furloughees would be above those current West captains and all the former furloughed East pilots.

In other words, the top half of a combined DOH list would be heavily weighted with East pilots while the bottom half would be heavily weighted with West pilots until you got to the new hires.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

There are two of your biggest problems.

Have you, and are you paying what is required of you according to your contract that is administered by your legally elected union?

You are asking the question incorrectly, but the answere is, I am well within my rights afforded me by the West contract and the usapa CB&Ls.

Now, would you like to tell me how ALPA reneged on its commitments to east pilots? Absolutely did not happen, post merger anyway. From the West's perspective, ALPA was flat out favoring the east at the West's expense. A little bit of that was understandable because of the relationships built over time, for example between Prater and (I have forgotten the name of the ALPA national sec/treas east pilot), but, ALPA did not do anything to harm the east in the AAA/AWA merger. So, your rationalization that a double standard exist is completely false.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Yeah, I know of one that did. He was falsely accused, so he became a MIGS, and faced his accusers face to face and explained the truth. He so impressed them that they released him from the suit, I believe without him directly asking to be released. He then educated a lot of east guys about what the C18 was really about. In doing so, he won the admiration of many east pilots. I think you might know that guy.

I know that guy, Pi. He's reserved and likes to keep a low profile. Not the type of person to start trouble. His story motivated me to act by donating to the Cactus 18 defense fund.

Cactus gold

 

[BoeingBoy]

but when you start throwing at the whole group, one that I'm a part of, I have an issue. Especially when people are throwing child predator remarks around.

Do you doubt that Nos would have added that to his list of sins of the the West pilots if it were a West pilot instead of an East pilot that was caught taking those pics? I don't doubt that he'd use it repeatedly. Nos routinely throws crap at the whole West group based on the actions of some - why no problem with that? He threw accusations at me based on what the PI pilot group supposedly did to the Empire pilots (and I'm not convinced that it was the pilots but rather the company that did that) - why no problem with that? You want the East pilots, and especially yourself, treated with kid gloves. You've dug the double standard hole too deep to get out of now.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

The list itself, if it is indeed straight DOH, isn't that hard to figure out - at least in general terms. A lot of West captains would have mid and lower F/O seniority, many of the former furloughees would be above those current West captains and all the former furloughed East pilots.

In other words, the top half of a combined DOH list would be heavily weighted with East pilots while the bottom half would be heavily weighted with West pilots until you got to the new hires.

Jim

In general terms perhaps, but where would everybody be today, in real time, taking in to consideration C&R's, to protect the West in their current positions. Also, shared system wide attrition, under a DOH scenario, would radically change the picture in short order. Without a NOW real time trial bid, nobody really knows the facts. Same thing for a NIC trial bid. What would it hurt to just "take a look"?

seajay

 

[CactusPilot1]

hahahaha.

I plan on having the last laugh

 

[BoeingBoy]

What would it hurt to just "take a look"?

seajay

Nothing - I fought for a "practice bid" like PI had for years while I was on the bid closing committee. Obviously, that would have been different from what you want - a practice DOH bid of the combined pilot group. They resisted on the grounds that it wouldn't be accurate since pilots could change their bids between the practice and real bid, and at least in Resource Planning that does the East bids I'm sure that thinking still applies.

The "general terms" I was talking about would say where everyone would be with a system flush - every job in the system is open for award to the most senior person who bids it. The meager C&R's would slow the flow of people to what their seniority could hold but not eliminate it. Take the C&R's - they do not absolutely protect West pilots in their positions. A West pilot moves from the A320 to 757 captain and that A320 spot is open to anyone system wide plus he's not protected on the 757 since it's not his protected position. So an East pilot could bid and get the A320 vacancy and another could now displace the West pilot from his 757 captain job on the next bid. And that's just an example of the weakness of one C&R. The C&R's offer protection only if no West pilot changes jobs, but even then any vacancies would be filled by East pilots pushing the West pilots down toward what their DOH seniority could hold.

So basically, if you take the combined DOH seniority list and say "OK, what can this pilot hold given his seniority number" you'll have a pretty accurate picture of the future a few years after the combined DOH list went into effect.

Jim