US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Black Swan,

Still spinning the same web, huh? Perhaps you missed my question to you...

My answer to you, is there is no contract this year, or next. The East has LOA84 pay restoration possibility and Cof C language as hole cards. The west has nothing backing them in a transaction. My other answer to the question you should have asked is the Nic is going to get clarified just like a bunch of crap that floats to the top of greasy soup. Skimmed off, and trashed. My other statement is Doug is going to have so much trouble on the horizon with the AFA and the fact Kirby didn't hedge fuel that this pilot problem he has is going to fade into the backdrop.

 

[crazystnic]

Shuttle merger......................slotting by equipment and staus.

America West merger.............slotting by equipment and staus.

Delta Northwest merger..........slotting by equipment and staus.

Who's the job stealing low life?

*****************

The West is....
I lost 9 months in the shuttle merger.
and 20 years in the AWA merger...

that's not slotting it's a staple....

 

[luvthe9]

Yup, saw it. Loved how Dougie dodged the question, it happened off property, don't know much about it, etc. I guess he missed a filed police report or it hit too close to home since he had his mugshot plastered all over the news after his DUI.

He lowered the bar for incidents off the property and gave a USAPA thug a pass.

No, he gave himself a pass. The others just got a free ride.

 

[Captain Underpants]

If Kasher comes in with the LOA 84 rates, you are certainly going to get to live with your contract for 5 more. Guaranteed. That, will be binding......

Black Swan,

Some interesting facts thats came out of the LOA 93 pay arbitration:

• The East pay rates are contained in the original 1998 contract and have been subject to a long series pay modifications both up and down.
• The pay modifications are all contractual mathematical adjustments to the base rates and are date specific subject only to computation.
• The Captain rates for the A320 series peaked at $231 hr. for A321 night and $327 hr. for A330 Captain after the 2001 pay parity review.
  
• LOA 84 cut the A320 Captain rates to $148 hr. in 2003 and then would have increased the rates with biannual step increases back to $178 hr. by 5/2008
• LOA 84 also provided an additional 3% compounding step increase in May every year after 2008 for the duration of the indefinite status quo period
  
• The company requested additional pay rate modifications for LOA 93 to present as a 5 year plan to potential investors to bring the airline out of BK2
• The LOA 93 pay modifications consisted of a temporary pay freeze at the current May 2004 rates plus an additional 18% conditional reduction, reduction of International override, and elimination of separate night rates.
  
• As a defense during the arbitration the company claimed they never agreed to the contractually stated 12/31/09 pay freeze expiration. They are requesting the arbitrator change the agreement by deleting the pay freeze expiration date. The arbitrator can only interpret the contract and has no legal authority to make any changes to the contract.
• Testimony by the ALPA negotiators revealed the company did initially reject the pay freeze expiration date during negotiations but then did agree to include the expiration date on the last pass which the union accepted.
• The company flew in the LOA 93 company negotiator from India and listed him as a witness to be called. The USAPA attorneys were hoping the company negotiator would take the stand and the company lawyers brought him into the room but then declined to allow him to testify.
  
• The 18% pay cut from LOA 93 was conditional on the pay rates being frozen and the company is asking the arbitrator to now declare the 18% pay reduction as non-conditional and allow it to remain in effect.
  
• The company's main defense was to produce a long list of evidence of various individual's opinions and actions indicating those individuals believed the LOA 93 pay modifications were to be permanent.
• USAPA's main defense was to allow the written agreement to speak for itself. USAPA also submitted as evidence the mathematically correct current pay rates as computed by applying all the current contract and LOA date specific pay rate modifications.
  
• If USAPA prevails pay restoration is not automatic. The case would then proceed to a remedy phase with negotiations between USAPA and the company to reach an agreement on restoring the proper pay. If no agreement is reached it would then go back to the arbitrator to impose a remedy on the company.

No one knows for sure why the arbitrator has delayed his decision. I am sure it will be interesting to watch the fireworks when the decision is released.

underpants

 

[BoeingBoy]

[*]USAPA's main defense was to allow the written agreement to speak for itself.

Which is the weakness in USAPA's argument. It depends on the interpretation of "frozen" since LOA 93 doesn't say "restored" or "snap-back".

After I read the transcripts, what struck me was that USAPA's main argument seemed to be that after agreeing to all the concessions the pilots deserved to have their pay restored. The company presented witnesses that had a role in negotiating LOA 93 and doing the road shows who testified that "restoration" was not the intent of the language. The company also presented documents saying the same.

Jim

 

[Ames]

There was also expressed some wishful thinking that is so far from reality as to be bordering on delusional. There isn't enough "professionalism" in the universe to put a low life, job stealing AWA pilot in the left seat with a US Airways east pilot in the right seat some 14 to 16 years senior to him, and expect a safe operation.

What an unmigated mess...


Boeing Driver

I agree. Guys that think like you do don't have enough professionalism. That's a given.

When this is finally over and you haven't gotten your way, you should leave. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Pinnacle Pilots (ALPA) Ratify New Contract - How come after nearly 3 years USAPA cannot get a TA?

See Story

 

[Freighterguynow]

LOA 93 doesn't say "restored" or "snap-back".

Because it is neither.

LOA 84 also provided an additional 3% compounding step increase in May every year after 2008


It would be a "snap up" from those wages with the 3% raise added in for 08/09/10 and 2011.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Which is the weakness in USAPA's argument. It depends on the interpretation of "frozen" since LOA 93 doesn't say "restored" or "snap-back".

After I read the transcripts, what struck me was that USAPA's main argument seemed to be that after agreeing to all the concessions the pilots deserved to have their pay restored. The company presented witnesses that had a role in negotiating LOA 93 and doing the road shows who testified that "restoration" was not the intent of the language. The company also presented documents saying the same.

Jim

Jim,

It is well established in contract law that a freeze is reversed by an expiration date and does not require snap back language. Ask any arbitrator or contract lawyer. It is a standard contract provision. Freezes are specifically used in contracts to avoid any possibility of interpretation claims. Numbers and dates are immune from interpretation manipulation. The only way it could be different is if the contract contained some agreed upon alternative definition of a freeze. To the contrary freeze and freeze expirations like training freezes etc. have been used in our pilot contracts for a long time with never a dispute or misunderstanding as to how it works.

Yes the company presented evidence of many people who believed incorrectly what the post freeze pay rates would be. It is very simple:

Base pay rates + or - date specific contractual mathematical pay modifications = current pay rates

underpants

 

[D Summons a Seagull]

Pinnacle Pilots (ALPA) Ratify New Contract - How come after nearly 3 years USAPA cannot get a TA?

See Story

You talk like a Chimp. No one cares about what you post or what you think. Anything you posts sounds like uh ah uh ah uh uh oh.

Stick to making hair growth commercials.

 

[Zone5]

Got around to watching the latest crew room video this morning. If "Dougie" is to be believed (a dubious assumption perhaps), prior to the merger, AWA was surviving on their historically lower cost structure (bottom industry wages and benefits), as legacy carriers reduced their cost structures through bankruptcy and other means (AKA LOA-93) ect, absent the 2005 merger with USAir, AWA "would have been wiped out". The industry wide reduction in costs was the "death knell of AWA". According to "Dougie", AWA would have been looking at bankruptcy in 2006 and gone in 2008".

Granted without the merger, USAirways might not have survived either. However, as evidenced by the relative viability of the East vs the West today, absent the merger, which one would have been more likely to have survived, at least to some degree? Seen much "ramping up" of that West operation?

Be that as it may and everyone has an opinion one way or the other, perhaps we can all do away with the "AWA saved USAirways mantra".

seajay

 

[Black Swan]

Which is the weakness in USAPA's argument. It depends on the interpretation of "frozen" since LOA 93 doesn't say "restored" or "snap-back".

After I read the transcripts, what struck me was that USAPA's main argument seemed to be that after agreeing to all the concessions the pilots deserved to have their pay restored. The company presented witnesses that had a role in negotiating LOA 93 and doing the road shows who testified that "restoration" was not the intent of the language. The company also presented documents saying the same.

Jim

You hang out the DESERVED part as its' own entity. You fail to couple it with the fact the East pilots deserve it because in the context of the negotiations, they agreed with the company to do the pay cuts to bring in investors.The actions then resulted in saving the company-hence the DESERVE being valid. De couple it as you do, and it takes on an entirely different meaning. You miss the boat again. Ignore the fact the pay was subject to its' own letter. No discussion of rigs, DH, vacation, etc. Put in as the fail safe key to be used if the company survived. It did, now Kasher is undoubtedly going to see it was there for a reason. This decision is going to absolutely rock this company on its' heels very shortly. The fallout to the west will be devastating as far as the Nic goes. The bar will be raised to a level the company will not even be able to consider to bring the west to. The "all the risk lies with the west" will be crystal clear immediately. Go ahead and keep crowing how this one is lost. It is killer and it is coming soon.

 

[Black Swan]

Because it is neither.

LOA 84 also provided an additional 3% compounding step increase in May every year after 2008


It would be a "snap up" from those wages with the 3% raise added in for 08/09/10 and 2011.

Exactly. It is not a snap back. And that is crap ALPA language anyhow.Freeze is used throughout. And that little term is well understood by both parties. Just the fact the company and ALPA signed on to the separate letter makes it stand out for exactly what it is. Pay restoration.This little special comes back loaded with 3% bumps every year, two which these criminals have reneged on so far. Kasher is writing a nice little package for Doug right now, and it doesn't have a very nice ending for the company or the west.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Whatever helps you sleep at night...

Now answer this - if a pilot bids down from the 76I to the A320, incurring a training freeze with a set term, does he automatically go back to the 76I when the freeze ends?

Jim

 

[767jetz]

There isn't enough "professionalism" in the universe to put a low life, job stealing AWA pilot in the left seat with a US Airways east pilot in the right seat some 14 to 16 years senior to him, and expect a safe operation.

Boeing Driver

Here comes the safety argument again. Name calling aside, if an east pilot can't do his job safely while flying in the right seat next to a person younger than him, or with less years at AWA than he has at US, then it is indeed that said east pilot who lacks professionalism. What does that say about your group? How about the Shuttle pilots? The Delta & NW pilots?

Interesting how you lump everyone into the same barrel as you, while calling others lowlife's. Reality check, not everyone lacks the professionalism that you and your sister lack. I certainly will have no problem slinging the gear for one of my CO counterparts regardless of his age or hire date prior to our merger. If that's the way the SLI goes, so be it. You guys live on an island all your own.

You're right about one thing. There probably isn't enough professionalism in the universe to make up for your groups lack thereof.