US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Maybe you've got it - the pay freeze gives the union the rights they had before the freeze, which is LOA 84 rates minus 18%. To negotiate a higher pay rate. If "freeze" has such a common and universally understood meaning, the result of the freeze ending should be the same for a pilot whose training freeze ends or the pilot group whose LOA 93 pay freeze ends. Yet you're arguing that different meanings of a freeze apply to the two situations. If the pilot that has been frozen merely goes back to being able to bid a different position, the end of the pay freeze should mean that the union to being able to negotiate a new payscale.

Jim

I have a question I would then pose to you in light of LOA 93 pay restoration. If the vacation, sick time, DH, rigs were also undoubtedly included in LOA 93, then why and how can you then make the argument that the pay was addressed in a separate letter, with a date? And all other facets of the givebacks NOT given a letter and date? And seeing the pay was addressed in same letter, why was it singled out? And why did it reference LOA 84 pay rates if there was no intention of ever paying them? Why were they specifically addressed?

 

[mrbreeze]

Got around to watching the latest crew room video this morning. If "Dougie" is to be believed (a dubious assumption perhaps), prior to the merger, AWA was surviving on their historically lower cost structure (bottom industry wages and benefits), as legacy carriers reduced their cost structures through bankruptcy and other means (AKA LOA-93) ect, absent the 2005 merger with USAir, AWA "would have been wiped out". The industry wide reduction in costs was the "death knell of AWA". According to "Dougie", AWA would have been looking at bankruptcy in 2006 and gone in 2008".

Granted without the merger, USAirways might not have survived either. However, as evidenced by the relative viability of the East vs the West today, absent the merger, which one would have been more likely to have survived, at least to some degree? Seen much "ramping up" of that West operation?

Be that as it may and everyone has an opinion one way or the other, perhaps we can all do away with the "AWA saved USAirways mantra".

seajay


Zone,
I would add that the East pilots gave $8.7 billion to insure that our jobs would survive....we brought that to the table.

 

[Black Swan]

USAPA is like a mosquito. Very annoying parasite that has no benefit to the host. It just sucks the blood out to sustain itself. Like a mosquito, USAPA was conceived in a cesspool. It buzzes around until it annoys the host to a point of getting squashed. I hope USAPA suffers a similar fate.

Displaying classic delusional characteristics of one bitten by same insect and infected with encephalitus.......

 

[Ames]

Jetz,

Since all you are about is truth and justice....why do you care???????????

NICDOA
NPJB

I will bet he cares for the same reason I do. The east are attempting to force an unbelievable injustice on the west. Other pilot groups recognize this. The east continues to lie to themselves about the levity of our situation.

 

[luvthe9]

I will bet he cares for the same reason I do. The east are attempting to force an unbelievable injustice on the west. Other pilot groups recognize this. The east continues to lie to themselves about the levity of our situation.

Why would we laugh at the comedy of your "situation" . As if it is some classic civil rights case. Give us a break!

 

[fodase]

The east pilots are the biggest clowns in the industry, look at this "better" union they created. These clowns are responsible for every bad thing that happens to them but they are so arrogant they can't even see it.






DCA and PHL Pilots,

So far this year USAPA has had an in-person BPR meeting, numerous conference calls, a picketing event, had legal provide oral argument in USAirways' declaratory judgment lawsuit in federal court, received the results from the safety culture survey and continued mediated negotiations. All of that in 45 days. Much of that time has been spent attempting to conclude the important, but in business terms, relatively simple task of relocating the union office location in Charlotte due to the lease expiration.

This process could have been concluded shortly after the BPR meeting held the first week in January. Finally, it appears to have been finished on February 14th. Repeated delays and procedural roadblocks, (to which the safety committee became an unfortunate pawn) added to significant delays in completing this task. We think that our officer's inability to work together caused the delay.

In our opinion, the president vigorously opposed the will of the majority of the BPR in regards to the location of the new USAPA offices throughout the entire process. This resulted in unnecessary lengthy delays and costs to the pilots in an attempt to subvert the process. Now he has refused to sign the lease agreement for the Woodlawn property as approved by the BPR. Instead, he delegated that duty to the EVP in an attempt to abdicate his responsibility as president of the association.

As mentioned in a recent letter to you we believe that the BPR is working together for the pilots to achieve our common goals, obtaining an industry standard contract and protecting the collective rights of all USAirways pilots. We believe that the officers are not. All four officers have responsibilities to work together but two are continually attacked. Name calling, alleged verbal and physical assaults and accusations of not doing each officers job occur weekly. The continued lack of professionalism, respect and disregard of the union code of ethics in the Constitution is keeping the officers from doing their jobs. This often trickles to the BPR and leads to political attacks and "taking sides" defending individual officers.

The president of USAPA has disagreed with the former executive vice-president to such a degree that the EVP resigned in protest. He has had conflicts with the current EVP, and the secretary-treasurer to the point of insulting both of them repeatedly both in private as well as in public and through a USAPA-all email distribution. This same email contained disparaging comments about the motives of the majority of the BPR as being contrary to the best interests of the pilots and implied that any disagreement with his direction is tied into being against Date of Hire and is tantamount to siding with the West. It appears to us that the will of the pilots of USAPA is being disregarded by the actions and comments of your president towards two of your elected officers and the majority (eight of eleven) of your elected Representatives.

All USAPA personnel MUST work in accordance with the Constitution and By-Laws and fairly represent the USAirways pilots. There are 4 officers, not one or two, and you the pilots need to know that in our opinion they are not fulfilling their responsibility.

We see no "traitors" but do see too much personal judgment. It is time to focus on tasks, not personalities. Those who refuse to accept the responsibility attached to their elected office should resign. We remain focused on representing the best interests of the pilots of USAPA and towards our common goal of moving forward in UNITY to achieving an industry standard contract. Let us know your thoughts so we can continue to properly represent you.

Fraternally,

Captain Joe Stein
DCA Chairman
[email protected]
704-264-6235

First Officer Pete Dugstad
DCA Vice Chairman
[email protected]
980-226-0018

Doug Burke
PHL Chairman
[email protected]
980-875-7643

John DuBarry
PHL Vice Chairman
[email protected]
980-875-7641

Roger Henriksson
PHL Vice Chairman
[email protected]
704-458-5602

 

[Freighterguynow]

I will bet he cares for the same reason I do. The east are attempting to force an unbelievable injustice on the west. Other pilot groups recognize this. The east continues to lie to themselves about the levity of our situation.

It has been taken to a new level.


The number 1 Midwest guy is at 1002, 62 years old with 32 years of longevity.

The RAH guy 1 number senior to him was BORN 42 days before the Midwest guy was HIRED at Midwest.

RAH DOB = 10/20/1978

MEA DOH = 12/01/1978

 

[Phoenix]

The east pilots are the biggest clowns in the industry, look at this "better" union they created. These clowns are responsible for every bad thing that happens to them but they are so arrogant they can't even see it.






DCA and PHL Pilots,

So far this year ...

One of the favorite tactics under ALPA was to sling mud while pretending to pontificate about "you are the union" and you are so lucky to have us because we are telling you who the scoundrels are in our union who need to live up to their duties (so that we can all band together and fight the evil monsters). The fact is throwing manufactured mud is a slimy tactic of those who are dissatisfied that they can't have everything their own way, so they resort to manipulating the members via emotional appeals to patriotism and apple pie. Whatever. Quit insulting the intelligent pilots who couldn't care less about trivial whining and moaning. People disagree. So what. It took decades for ALPA to screw up so bad that they finally got tossed. The notion that USAPA should be decapitated and rebuilt already because they picked the wrong flavor of cheese cake for this month's luncheon is a bit melodramatic. Whatever.

Maybe next we can talk about the frivolous and exorbitant cost of having the Ford Taurus available for use. Fire them all I say. Down with the oppressors. Remember the Alamo and Cairo. Yawn.

P.S. Has anyone noticed what Poug Darker and his merry band is doing? Hint: Turn the guns to the outside of the circle.

 

[fodase]

One of the favorite tactics under ALPA was to sling mud while pretending to pontificate about "you are the union" and you are so lucky to have us because we are telling you who the scoundrels are in our union who need to live up to their duties (so that we can all band together and fight the evil monsters). The fact is throwing manufactured mud is a slimy tactic of those who are dissatisfied that they can't have everything their own way, so they resort to manipulating the members via emotional appeals to patriotism and apple pie. Whatever. Quit insulting the intelligent pilots who couldn't care less about trivial whining and moaning. People disagree. So what. It took decades for ALPA to screw up so bad that they finally got tossed. The notion that USAPA should be decapitated and rebuilt already because they picked the wrong flavor of cheese cake for this month's luncheon is a bit melodramatic. Whatever.

Maybe next we can talk about the frivolous and exorbitant cost of having the Ford Taurus available for use. Fire them all I say. Down with the oppressors. Remember the Alamo and Cairo. Yawn.

P.S. Has anyone noticed what Poug Darker and his merry band is doing? Hint: Turn the guns to the outside of the circle.

Why don't you address the fact that was written by your own reps? typical clown maneuver, deflect reality and write some mumbo jumbo to hide the facts

 

[sumadarson]

And we all know how "good" USAPA is at negotiating.

ual pilots have been negotiating since 2006. How are you doing now at ual. For your assistance I have provided part of your negotiating q and a that is recent and includes the cal pilots. What is taking you gentlemen so long, maybe Usairways pilots can learn from your six plus years of failure.

ual negotiating recent update;;

"""As of December 17 our contract is now in arbitration, correct? I have heard that US Airways/America West went to arbitration, and 5 years later they still do not have a contract. I was told that their contract was arbitrated expeditiously but they decertified the union when the seniority lists were not merged to the satisfaction of the pilots. Did Delta/Northwest have to go to arbitration for either a contract or seniority lists? What length of time would be considered typical to have a contract in arbitration? Is our contract arbitration being expedited? After the mediator reaches his conclusion, are the pilots given an opportunity to vote on it, or is our only recourse to strike? When would we be released to go on a strike?

Answer: Our contract negotiations are not in arbitration. On December 17 we requested the services of the National Mediation Board (NMB) per the Railway Labor Act (RLA). A mediator has been assigned to our negotiations, but his role is that of a mediator, not an arbitrator.

From the NMB web site:

As provided for in the RLA, the National Mediation Board (NMB) is responsible for providing mediation services to help the parties reach a settlement should the parties fail to reach an agreement during direct negotiations. If the parties are unable to reach a voluntary agreement to establish or modify a collective bargaining agreement, either party may apply for the mediation services of the NMB. Once mediation is invoked, the NMB conducts mediation meetings until an agreement is reached or until the NMB concludes no agreement can be reached despite its best mediatory efforts. If the NMB reaches this conclusion, it urges both sides to resolve their dispute through binding arbitration. Upon rejection of the proffer of arbitration by either party, the NMB releases the parties into a 30-day cooling off period. During the cooling off period, neither side can alter the status quo. At the end of 30 days, the parties either reach an agreement or engage in self help.

In reality, binding arbitration is almost never accepted by the parties to airline contract negotiations.

In the past, the length of time that airlines have remained in negotiations has depended on a host of complicated factors. To understand and appreciate the complexity of the process, some knowledge of the history of the RLA is required. It was enacted by the Congress in 1926 in an effort to end the constant labor strife in the railway industry, and the RLA's primary purpose is to minimize disruptions to the nation's commerce by making it very difficult for transportation unions to go on strike. But, recognizing that some method of dispute resolution is necessary, the RLA set up a framework for negotiating disputes (e.g. contract negotiations). That is the framework that we must follow, but it is the reason that, so often, contract negotiations drag on for years. In contrast, countries that are more labor-union-friendly than the United States do permit legal strikes to occur much more easily, and union members in those countries generally have relatively more lucrative contracts as a result.

In our specific case, however, it doesn't necessarily mean that our negotiations will drag out for years. There is a lot of incentive on both sides to expeditiously negotiate a new contract. Our management has the positive example of the success of Delta Airlines and the negative example of the mess at US Airways as signposts. We will continue to negotiate per the procedures specified above, but we don't know how long the process will take, and our intent is to move the process along as expeditiously as possible.

It's the NMB that has the legal authority to release the parties into a 30-day cooling off period. Their decision to do so is done in accordance with the RLA, of which its primary purpose is to minimize disruptions to commerce.

The NMB's web site has a lot of very good information:

http://www.nmb.gov/mediation/faq-mediation.html

As far as US Airways is concerned: Under the ALPA merger policy in effect at the time, the seniority list integration (SLI) process, which does call for binding arbitration if necessary, took place prior to negotiating a new contract. The SLI went to arbitration, but many of the former US Airways pilots were unhappy with the arbitrator's integrated seniority list award, so they successfully decertified ALPA, replacing it with an in-house union, USAPA, with a new union constitution that mandated merger of the seniority lists based on date of hire. The new union re-merged the seniority lists, but before the new consolidated seniority list was presented to US Airways, the America West pilots sued the new union in federal court, alleging breach of the duty of fair representation (DFR) under federal labor law. A jury trial was held in Arizona Federal District Court. The jury held for the America West pilots and against the new union. Notwithstanding the jury trial and verdict, the Ninth Circuit dismissed for "lack of ripeness", holding, in effect, that the case was premature because the former America West pilots had yet to be harmed by the imposition of the new "date-of-hire" seniority list. And so it continues to drag on. Till all this has been resolved in the courts, the US Airways pilots have not been able to negotiate a new contract, and the former America West pilots and the former US Airways pilots continue to operate as separate groups with separate contracts.

As a result of the US Airways SLI, ALPA merger policy was changed to include longevity as one of the factors to be taken into consideration, and SLIs now do not take place till AFTER a new contract has been negotiated to preclude giving up contractual improvements, including pay.

 

[sumadarson]

Exactly my thoughts throughout this discussion. A freeze means nothing can change for a certain time frame. That time frame may be indefinitely. But it never implies "snap back." It can't be altered while frozen. It just means that when the freeze ends, things can be negotiated again. And we all know how "good" USAPA is at negotiating.

Grievances are some times complicated. Well lets take for example the united airlines alpa pilots grievance you lost recently.

The company put cameras in the united airline pilots alpa crew lounges and they caught united airlines pilots behaving badly.

One of the complaints that your company ual brought up is that if a fellow united airlines alpa pilot did not do things your way, they were called in the middle of the night at home and threatened. Now jetz, the real gutsy things your fellow united pilot alpa "gentlemen" did, if the pilot was not home they talked to the wife or kids in a unprofessional matter when the phone was answered. They also sent some magazine subscriptions to the home that were uncomfortable to the receivers. Tsk, Tsk.

Refer to case number 2009 ual-mec-3r. If you can elaborate on this it would be appreciated.

My point is jetz that as a ual pilot you understand, grievances are not fun.

 

[Ames]

It has been taken to a new level.


The number 1 Midwest guy is at 1002, 62 years old with 32 years of longevity.

The RAH guy 1 number senior to him was BORN 42 days before the Midwest guy was HIRED at Midwest.

RAH DOB = 10/20/1978

MEA DOH = 12/01/1978

Who cares? DOB vs DOH? As my daughter would say... "random!"

 

[N924PS]

ual pilots have been negotiating since 2006. How are you doing now at ual. For your assistance I have provided part of your negotiating q and a that is recent and includes the cal pilots. What is taking you gentlemen so long, maybe Usairways pilots can learn from your six plus years of failure.

Really Nostro, minion of doom and negativity, we are all growing weary of your incessant rants regarding UAL and 767Jetz.

USAirways pilots, especially you will never learn from experience (except perhaps when actually flying airplanes) and are clearly headed for another major (and expensive) disappointment.

What will you learn from USAPA's failure to deliver a DOH seniority list or more importantly, a decent contract?

All is not well with the Reichsmarschall, do I hear a recall in the wind?

 

[Ames]

Why would we laugh at the comedy of your "situation" . As if it is some classic civil rights case. Give us a break!

If nothing else, OUR situation is comical.

Two groups of adults follow a prescribed merger policy. An arbitrator made a decision that both groups agreed to abide by at the onset. One group of adults stamps their feet, holds their breath, whines and cries like spoiled rotten children. Comical. Just f%&^ing comical!

Now we see those on your side saying there is not enough professionalism in the world for you to fly with west crews if you don't get your way.

Again, f%^&ing comical.

 

[767jetz]

Jim,

That's an easy one. The freeze temporarily locks bidding rights. When the freeze expires the pilot then has exactly the same bidding rights as if the freeze never existed. The freeze and all of its limitations disappear completely and forever. Expired....Poof....Gone.

Same with the pay freeze. The freeze temporarily locks pay. When it expires the rates become the same as if the freeze never existed. The pilot does not automatically go back to the 76I just like the pay rates would not automatically go back to the prior 2001 parity review rates either.

underpants

Your analogy is off. No surprise since your version is altered to mean what you want it to mean.

In the pilot bidding example, the freeze is over but the pilot does not snap back to his or her previous assignment. He now has the right to bid what his seniority holds. In the time that passed, other bids came and went. Maybe now there are no openings and he stays right where he is. It works both ways too. What about the pilot who upgrades to the 330? When his training freeze expires does he get bumped back to the 320 and have to bid back again? What about pilot at airline X who is a 737 f/o. He bids to the 320, incurring a 2 year freeze. Six months later there are 767 openings and pilots junior to him bid from the 737 to the 767. Now his freeze expires but there are no more bids, and there are junior pilots to him flying the 767. Can he bump them out? Is he not still in his seat until he bids out? What if he wanted to fly the 737 again for quality of life? Can he "snap back" to his previous seat even if there are no vacancies? Of course not. Nothing changes when the freeze expires except the fact that the restrictions of the said freeze are gone. There is no snap back to anything unless specifically agreed to.

BTW, this actually happened to me as a 737 f/o with a freeze. There were 767 bids every month, but stopped the month before my freeze ended. I sat on the 737 for 7 more months waiting for another 767 bid to open, while pilots junior to me flew the 767. Boy would I have loved to live in your bizzarro world back then. Hey! Maybe if you win your grievance I can go back and get retro pay for those 7 months! Great idea!