US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

I can understand the judge defining it, with the backing of previous case law and the barrier to reach a dfr as defined by scotus, Not so sure the "west" gets to define it to the judge.

The west may feel they have been subjected to a DFR, and get to explain that to a judge, but doesn't necessarily mean they get to define it. In fact I think the 9th even alluded some to the fact that the NIC is essentially a stalemate, that even ALPA recognized. Hence some of their wording in their decision. Could be wrong, but too late to go back and read it again...

Let me add. JUST because the west fears it, does not in itself make a it a breach of DFR.....

Now if you could only convince Siegel and the company's legal team of the above you would be all set. You do understand they are experts in labor law and see something you conveniently ignore. But go ahead, pass that DOH contract across the table and see what happens.
The company's DJ action is quite telling for a lot of people, and Silver gets it. Tough love coming your way via Kirby and Parker imo.
Things are going great- separate ops and I am happy with my contract for about five more years.

 

[Black Swan]

Now if you could only convince Siegel and the company's legal team of the above you would be all set. You do understand they are experts in labor law and see something you conveniently ignore. But go ahead, pass that DOH contract across the table and see what happens.
The company's DJ action is quite telling for a lot of people, and Silver gets it. Tough love coming your way via Kirby and Parker imo.
Things are going great- separate ops and I am happy with my contract for about five more years.

If Kasher comes in with the LOA 84 rates, you are certainly going to get to live with your contract for 5 more. Guaranteed. That, will be binding......

 

[Black Swan]

Ain't that the truth! Aqua is a savior to the west, he was part of an effective effort which has led to the blocking of USAPA's cram down DOH for three years now. I can't think of a better example than this!

And now we get the FO Bradford letter crying about the wrecking of his creation (when in fact it was an inevitable consequence of an ill- conceived idea)- all brought to you by Leonidas. Look at the company's DJ filing- ALL BECAUSE OF AOL! Thanks you AQUA!!!

God, time to send in another check to keep this ship status quo for just another four or five years. Then the retirements kick in out east and we can combine ops to take our share of the flying back.

Koontz has absolutely no understanding of an Internal Union Dispute. This has gotten your side into the mess you are in. There is more and more pressure on the junior west pilots to abandon Nicolau. They are keeping the senior West pilots from the 76 and 330. I guarantee Judge Silver is looking over her shoulder for the long shadow of the 9th. If she dare plow any new legal ground in this, she will get immediately leashed by the 9th with an even clearer education of a union and its' internal mechanisms with regard to labor. They should have addressed Wake even harder, because he and Koontz led you hand in hand down the fairy tale you now believe. Amazing how Koontz still does not understand where the real power in this decision lies. And that is in San Francisco, with a decision made, not a clarification. Keep believing Judge Silver has some magical power to override the 9th. It will be very gratifying to see her get an education if she attempts to walk the path of Wake and Leonidas. Personally? I am absolutely hoping Judge Silver goes over the line, and this thing goes right back to SF and this time, there will be no question for the company or Leonidas. It will be made absolutely clear. The second time will be the charm, and the silver bullet that takes the gas out of the Leonidas balloon forever.

 

[Black Swan]

Yeah he's pretty confident isn't he? Hate 2 Fly has a college roommate over at UAL. He gets the "unbiased facts" from him in regards to UAL.....

You guys need to quit buying the UAL line. It is not true. This is a west poster with a psychotic agenda. Look at where she spends all her time.

 

[Black Swan]

Now if you could only convince Siegel and the company's legal team of the above you would be all set. You do understand they are experts in labor law and see something you conveniently ignore. But go ahead, pass that DOH contract across the table and see what happens.
The company's DJ action is quite telling for a lot of people, and Silver gets it. Tough love coming your way via Kirby and Parker imo.
Things are going great- separate ops and I am happy with my contract for about five more years.

Keep believing this clarification has the magic power Koontz says it does. If it does not remain germane to what the 9th said, they are not going to let it stand. It doesn't matter who the experts are this time. IF they don't clarify correctly, they will be schooled as to the intent of the 9th ruling. They will clarify it if they see Silver is running amok.

 

[767jetz]

Nos said:

for either pilot group to focus so intently on date of hire sends the wrong message about what pilots’ expectations should be.

I agree 100%. Great point Nos!

 

[prechilill]

Keep believing this clarification has the magic power Koontz says it does. If it does not remain germane to what the 9th said, they are not going to let it stand. It doesn't matter who the experts are this time. IF they don't clarify correctly, they will be schooled as to the intent of the 9th ruling. They will clarify it if they see Silver is running amok.

Hey, you can have your ideas, however crazy they may be, but the reality is you have an insurmountable obstacle ahead of you in bypassing the Nicolau- or it's equivalent. You see, the 9th was quite clear in that they lamented you can bypass the Nicolau if the alternative doesn't put anymore harm on the west as the Nic has (i.e. as long as the west doesn't loose any more than a few % of seniority). That's the direction from the 9th and I agree with them completely.

Enjoy your contract, we will be with this situation for quite a while. You guys miscalculated quite a lot back in April 2008 and I have three years as proof of this. All of us in the west are quite content with how things are looking and we are all very happy with how Silver conducted the hearing. Status quo for another four or five years is what it looks like the future holds.

 

[767jetz]

Black Swan,

Still spinning the same web, huh? Perhaps you missed my question to you...

As I said... believe what you want. Spin what you want. Interpret what you want from the court. It matters not. This will be solved by the courts, the company, or 51% of the US pilots. My question to you is, if your dream does not materialize, and a nic contract shows up on your doorstep this year and is ratified, will you be man enough to admit you were wrong all along? Or will you still live in denial and have an excuse? I've already said that the day you are living under a DOH contract, ratified, in place, with no further legal challenges from the west, I will be the first to be here admitting I read the tea leaves wrong. What about you? How confident are you really?

 

[BoeingBoy]

IF they don't clarify correctly, they will be schooled as to the intent of the 9th ruling. They will clarify it if they see Silver is running amok.

BS, Your lack of understanding of the simplest court procedures continues to amaze me.

First, the 9th isn't going to say a word no matter how Judge Silver rules unless someone appeals (although an appeal is likely). That's what Appeals Courts do - handle appeals. Did they speak up in the Addington trial when Judge Wake ruled that case ripe? No. The Appeals Court doesn't monitor the day to day operation of the District Courts.

Second, the 9th ruled on the ripeness of the Addington suit while Silver will be ruling on the companies DJ request - two separate cases. The 9th, in their ripeness ruling on Addington, didn't say a word about the companies legal liability in various scenarios, so however Silver rules she won't be "overriding" the 9th since she's not rehearing the Addington case.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

Koontz has absolutely no understanding of an Internal Union Dispute. This has gotten your side into the mess you are in. There is more and more pressure on the junior west pilots to abandon Nicolau. They are keeping the senior West pilots from the 76 and 330. I guarantee Judge Silver is looking over her shoulder for the long shadow of the 9th. If she dare plow any new legal ground in this, she will get immediately leashed by the 9th with an even clearer education of a union and its' internal mechanisms with regard to labor. They should have addressed Wake even harder, because he and Koontz led you hand in hand down the fairy tale you now believe. Amazing how Koontz still does not understand where the real power in this decision lies. And that is in San Francisco, with a decision made, not a clarification. Keep believing Judge Silver has some magical power to override the 9th. It will be very gratifying to see her get an education if she attempts to walk the path of Wake and Leonidas. Personally? I am absolutely hoping Judge Silver goes over the line, and this thing goes right back to SF and this time, there will be no question for the company or Leonidas. It will be made absolutely clear. The second time will be the charm, and the silver bullet that takes the gas out of the Leonidas balloon forever.

As I said above, we have another three to five years ahead of us with status quo. You guys are pretty far off the reservation as witnessed by the three years which have passed since USAPA came aboard promising to be "the quickest way to a joint contract". You and your union are a complete joke, but as Susie said recently USAPA is the best thing to have happened to the west- we would hate to have fought Prater on this. You guys are much more disorganized and stupid than ALPA ever could be.

 

[Ames]

Are you serious? We are under LOA 93 because the East pilots stupidly agreed to it, and it was IMPLEMENTED, voted in under ALPA. There was no other agency other than ALPA. Are you going to come out and say the Nic was IMPLEMENTED while ALPA was in? It never made it to agreement while ALPA was in. Never accepted by the company in a legal sense with signatures of all parties.

Yes it was accepted! Parker wrote a letter to the pilot group accepting the Nicolau, Dec 20, 2007. At that time he paid each ALPA MEC $300,00 for the completion of the seniority list. Parker was given a copy of that letter in the PHX Nov crew news and did a very poor job of tap dancing around this, however it is on record and his actions are recorded. He knows that he is contractually bound to the Nicolau decision, as does Judge Silver. Ultimately he can't tap dance around his acceptance of the Nicolau.

Offer + acceptance + remuneration = contract. Final and Binding Contract. Parker knows this. His lawyers know this. The judge knows this. Only the intellectually challenged don't know this.

 

[Bear96]

Koontz has absolutely no understanding of an Internal Union Dispute. This has gotten your side into the mess you are in. There is more and more pressure on the junior west pilots to abandon Nicolau. They are keeping the senior West pilots from the 76 and 330. I guarantee Judge Silver is looking over her shoulder for the long shadow of the 9th. If she dare plow any new legal ground in this, she will get immediately leashed by the 9th with an even clearer education of a union and its' internal mechanisms with regard to labor. They should have addressed Wake even harder, because he and Koontz led you hand in hand down the fairy tale you now believe. Amazing how Koontz still does not understand where the real power in this decision lies. And that is in San Francisco, with a decision made, not a clarification. Keep believing Judge Silver has some magical power to override the 9th. It will be very gratifying to see her get an education if she attempts to walk the path of Wake and Leonidas. Personally? I am absolutely hoping Judge Silver goes over the line, and this thing goes right back to SF and this time, there will be no question for the company or Leonidas. It will be made absolutely clear. The second time will be the charm, and the silver bullet that takes the gas out of the Leonidas balloon forever.

:blink:

Wow. Have you even read the 9th Circuit's decision?

You keep posting as if not only did the 9th consider the underlying merits of the DFR case and of the Nic award, but also agreed with the East about both.

Amazing how you can misunderstand / overstate so much.

 

[Zone5]

If pointing out the reality of the situation using the truth is "jabbing others" then I'm fine with that. They say the "Truth only hurts if it should".

My pay is controlled by my "Union" called USAPA. I know the pay sucks. USAPA is ineffective and unable to do anything about it. (At least without creating a DFR for themselves.)

Nice name calling. Very "East" of you.


USAPA = Rudderless.

"They" also say, "No pain, no gain"!

The pay on the West has "Sucked" since day one of America West. Tell us again how that is USAPA's fault.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

A DFR suit from the east is a far different animal than a DFR suit from the west. What would the east argument be? That the union didn't represent them because they followed the law and followed the result of binding arbitration? If Nic does go forward, lets say after a new representational election and new leadership, or just through court direction or the company standing firm, someone on the east might file a case, but will have little merit and will doubtfully get to a jury verdict.

I suppose if the NIC ever made it to a USAPA contract, that a class of East pilots could emerge who would file a DFR against USAPA for not following their own constitution.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

Just because you say section 22 is not a cost factor to the Company doesn't mean it's true. Exposure to litigation risk for breach of contract and collusion is substantial. You can hold your breath and say it isn’t so, but no one at the Company believes your opinion is correct. However, even if you were correct, what leverage does USAPA have to bring Management to the table? So far Management doesn’t seem to be threatened in any way by USAPA or the NMB with regards to their pace of negotiations –and they shouldn’t be since USAPA is 100% to blame for the lack of a JCBA.

The east has zero chance of winning a DFR on the use of the NIC in a JCBA. Even if ALPA or USAPA had just accepted it as-is, there would be no basis for it since it was the result of an agreed upon SLI process and was resolved by a neutral 3rd-party arbitration board. Now that USAPA has spent 3+ years fighting it and will clearly only accept it under court-order once all appeals have been exhausted, how can a DFR claim be made? What could USAPA do differently to avoid the NIC than all they have done already. No DFR. That’s a straw man argument if there ever was one.

Management isn’t looking for excuses. They filed the DJ to move the process forward. They want this mess cleaned up as much as anyone, but USAPA isn’t acting on logic, reason or in the best interest of its constituents so Management had to go with a legal process to get the JCBA negotiations back on track. I didn’t put the cart before the horse; ALPA and Management were working effectively on the JCBA until the east pilots threw a tantrum and bailed out of any attempt to put an agreement out for ratification. ALPA did learn from the unscrupulous way the east handled this and improved their SLI process as a result – I do agree with you there.

You seem to be comparing the standard JCBA/CBA process to the one facing USAPA and Management. There is no equivalency between standard processes and this situation. How many CBA negotiations go to court on two separate lawsuits brought against the CBA in order to resolve the legal question concerning one of the contract sections before the contract is in place? This isn’t normal because USAPA isn’t normal, rational or operating in the same plane of reality as everyone else. Trying to have an intelligent conversation with USAPA is like trying to explain E=MC2 to an earthworm. USAPA has been the CBA for 1036 days. How many of those have they not been subject to some legal action from or against their own constituents? Whatever that number is, it is not normal for any organization to be that litigious as a normal course of business. USAPA is the problem, not the west, not Management, and not the boogy man.

We disagree. I'll get back to you after Judge Silver rules.

seajay