US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

NMB election results, ALPA vs USAPA. 5,238 votes cast, USAPA defeated ALPA by 469 votes. 469 is 8.9% of 5,238 NOT "1 or 2%" as stated above.

OK. I stand corrected. I re-read my post and actually thought it was more like 3%. But if you say it was 8-9% fine. It doesn't change the fact that an election today would have a different result. An election after the LOA93 grievance is lost would be even further away from that outcome.

 

[Pi brat]

That kind of raises the question "why is there no one trying a cba election then?", doesn't it?

 

[Black Swan]

I link the two? Both are in the same sentence of the 9ths ruling:

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.

There it is in plain English - a solution that doesn't harm the West as feared may be negotiated and ratified without USAPA getting sued for DFR.

Jim

You made my point. Read it again. They plainly say the final proposal may not actually harm the west, even if it IS NOT the Niclolau Award.This is a complete de-linking of the two. They clearly say there can be a proposal that does not harm the west as feared, and that does NOT include the Nicolau. That, is a clear separation of the two. What don't you get about that?

 

[Black Swan]

OK. I stand corrected. I re-read my post and actually thought it was more like 3%. But if you say it was 8-9% fine. It doesn't change the fact that an election today would have a different result. An election after the LOA93 grievance is lost would be even further away from that outcome.

Why, would the East now blame USAPA for a LOA 93 loss? It was ALPA approved and USAirways ALPA language that got this entire mess to grievance level. It was written so poorly there are many ways to argue. I still hold there would never be any language in the body of the agreement dealing with pay restoration if it were not meant to be dealt with. Again, why even have it if it means nothing? There is nobody on the east side who would now accept a Nicolau contract. It would only compound the damage by blocking the east out of widebody raises. Again, this makes no sense. Separate ops for years would be the only option for raises if this were the case. We would simply stay put, and capture the attrition. The west would then stay in their lousy pay also. Their choice. I say the west would abandon Nicolau. They would come off the Nicolau before the east accepts it. That is the more likely outcome.

 

[traderjake]

There is nobody on the east side who would now accept a Nicolau contract.

Not true, I fly with a lot who would.

When this is over you may not accept it but you probably will have to live with it..

 

[Barrister]

I'm not sure where your getting that. Maybe I'm missing something. I never implied a lower raise for the 320 and higher raise for the 330. I'm talking about industry average for all fleets. Just talking ball park numbers, a 320 f/o making 125/hr is almost what a captain makes now. A 320 capt making 180/hr is a pretty big raise. And it would help ALL captains, not just the few that eventually get to your current capt rate from the right seat.



Thats a ridiculous statement and nothing more than your opinion. The numbers don't support it. USAPA won the election by a matter of 1 or 2%. Have an election and see what happens. You will have your chance soon enough, when the LOA93 grievance fails and the election comes to a town near you.



Another wild assumption with nothing but your opinion to back it up. A new hire will go to the bottom no matter what list you choose to use. Separate ops will not last forever. Certainly not an entire career. Whatever happens, they will be on the bottom, after every west and east pilot anyway. So why would they want to help you with a magical ticket to the promised land, when they can get a big raise and better quality of life right away. All it takes is the next merger to make your "separate ops" promise vanish into thin air.

You hope they will buy into your ponzie scheme of separate ops just long enough for you to cash in. You are selling them a worthless bag of goods. Anyone can see that. Especially a new hire that hasn't been subject to years and years of your propaganda. That's a fact.

Believe what you want. Better yet, shut us up once and for all by putting a nic/industry average contract out for a vote. No risk for you since you believe it will NEVER pass. Then you have your proof and there would be nothing left for me or anyone else to say. Until then you are just pi$$ing into the wind.

Boy oh boy....post enough and you show cards you don't even know you are showing.....
please meet me in Vegas...the Belaggio is nice....$100 table closest to the door.
You name the date and time....

"SHUT US UP"????? OK dude tell us why should we should put NIC contract out to "SHUT US UP"
DUDE..I thought you worked for UAL. Why do we need to "SHUT US UP"
pLEASE TELL US WHY YOU CARE.

12000 UAL/CO guys on the list and you are the only (edited) here wanting us to "SHUT US UP"
who exactly is US.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Black Swan]

Ummm...469 divided by two 234.5. That's a 4.4% margin. I doubt USAPA would even get within 20% of ALPA if the vote were held today. Anyway, water under the bridge and USAPA has sure delivered for the West. Wye River could have been a disaster without any remedies.

Now on to the more important things in life, just got my March line:

Layover in domicile: Trip 1 - 33.5 hrs Trip 2 - 20.5 hrs, Trip 3 - 19 hrs; Trip 4 2 day with 9.2 hrs of flying but pays 10.5, Trip 5 - carry in to April with 29 hrs at home. Oh, and Trip 2 has a deadhead from PHL to CLT, full pay of course.

PBS works pretty well.

Glad you like it. We're going to keep our system. Enjoy yours. That is the beauty of separate ops!

 

[prechilill]

Here is what? Is there an attachment or something I'm missing? All I see is a quote.

You ask me questions and I try to answer. I ask you questions and you head down some other blind alley.

I told you I didn't have a may 05 senior list and if you would publish yours I would try understand what you are talking about. You never did. Then you switched from the growth claim to the east had 2200 active pilots in 2005 claim. I asked you how you defined active. You never answered.

Get me those and we can talk, otherwise you have proven nothing and everyone on here except the true idiots out west agree.

Explained active earlier but here it is again.
Take a seniority list and remove any name with a qualifier next to it such as "Furloughed", "Medical", "Military", "LOA" or "Retired" and you will find an additional 500 to 600 names on the list which were not there before May 2005.
I know you are not that dense and can understand that a seniority list cannot be published on a public message board, your cries for posting it are ridiculous. You can if you want but I won't. Anyone with Wings access can see your latest list and the other good reference is the Nicolau seniority list, it breaks it down beautifully. Monda has totally made out, got about 500 or so names below him who do not have the qualifiers listed just a few lines above. As to fleet growth, don't know much about that but the seniority list certainly has grown and I think your thorn Boeing Boy has eloquently stated why. Jetz did a good job as well. Your mischaracterization of posts is not surprising, my initial statement January 23 is correct in that about 600 or so names have been added to the seniority list while about 150 have left- that is why Monda has only moved up about 100 numbers the last five years. I may have been off by a hundred, but basically you guys have had a 15% increase in your pilots not on any type of leave or furlough since the PID.
I can archive this post because you will probably ask for explanation again in a couple of weeks.
Enjoy your job, I am quite pleased with the direction things are heading.

 

[No Land Green]

Ummm...469 divided by two 234.5. That's a 4.4% margin.

I took my numbers from the NMB, the organization that certified the vote. What number is "234.5"?

 

[prechilill]

NMB election results, ALPA vs USAPA. 5,238 votes cast, USAPA defeated ALPA by 469 votes. 469 is 8.9% of 5,238 NOT "1 or 2%" as stated above.

Well, it's pretty simple math actually. If 235 pilots had voted for ALPA the vote would have gone the other way because as most of us know one vote change results in a difference of 2 in the totals- subtract one from USAPA and add it to ALPA. So the end result if 235 pilots, or about 2% of the total pilot group, had changed their vote then the vote would have gone the other way hence the 2% number is correct. You are not.

 

[No Land Green]

Well, it's pretty simple math actually. If 235 pilots had voted for ALPA the vote would have gone the other way because as most of us know one vote change results in a difference of 2 in the totals- subtract one from USAPA and add it to ALPA. So the end result if 235 pilots, or about 2% of the total pilot group, had changed their vote then the vote would have gone the other way hence the 2% number is correct. You are not.

I guess you are correct. I just took my numbers from the National Mediation Board. You may want to ask them for a recount. Maybe they published the wrong results. 469/5238= 8.9%, that worked too when I was in high school in the early 70's. I still can't figure out this new math...........

 

[Pi brat]

Explained active earlier but here it is again.
Take a seniority list and remove any name with a qualifier next to it such as "Furloughed", "Medical", "Military", "LOA" or "Retired" and you will find an additional 500 to 600 names on the list which were not there before May 2005.
I know you are not that dense and can understand that a seniority list cannot be published on a public message board, your cries for posting it are ridiculous. You can if you want but I won't. Anyone with Wings access can see your latest list and the other good reference is the Nicolau seniority list, it breaks it down beautifully. Monda has totally made out, got about 500 or so names below him who do not have the qualifiers listed just a few lines above. As to fleet growth, don't know much about that but the seniority list certainly has grown and I think your thorn Boeing Boy has eloquently stated why. Jetz did a good job as well. Your mischaracterization of posts is not surprising, my initial statement January 23 is correct in that about 600 or so names have been added to the seniority list while about 150 have left- that is why Monda has only moved up about 100 numbers the last five years. I may have been off by a hundred, but basically you guys have had a 15% increase in your pilots not on any type of leave or furlough since the PID.
I can archive this post because you will probably ask for explanation again in a couple of weeks.
Enjoy your job, I am quite pleased with the direction things are heading.

Oh, it's a security issue. Why didn't you just say that a while back? There are pm, emails, but I could be a pilot stalker,so I will take you at your word there. I may have another way to get a 2005 list so I will try.

On your explanation of active, you are right, you did post it earlier but not when I asked you the second time when you came up with the 220 active pilots on May 2005, and I had forgotten about it. For that, I apologize.

As for the fleet, it went from 270 May 2005 to 217 today. Even with the severe understaffing in '05 and the additonal widebody staffing today, I see no way 2200 active can be right. One big clue is that Jim is not saying you are right. Did you read the bid summary that listed around 2900 and Jim said that was pilots flying the line? Have you followed all the other discussions and explanations? We haven't grown. Did you look at the staffing from the Nic? If we have grown positons from understaffing, we should have had them all along, then there would be no increase.

I will hunt again, and until I find it I won't mention it again, but when I do I will let you know.

 

[prechilill]

Oh, it's a security issue. Why didn't you just say that a while back? There are pm, emails, but I could be a pilot stalker,so I will take you at your word there. I may have another way to get a 2005 list so I will try.

On your explanation of active, you are right, you did post it earlier but not when I asked you the second time when you came up with the 220 active pilots on May 2005, and I had forgotten about it. For that, I apologize.

As for the fleet, it went from 270 May 2005 to 217 today. Even with the severe understaffing in '05 and the additonal widebody staffing today, I see no way 2200 active can be right. One big clue is that Jim is not saying you are right. Did you read the bid summary that listed around 2900 and Jim said that was pilots flying the line? Have you followed all the other discussions and explanations? We haven't grown. Did you look at the staffing from the Nic? If we have grown positons from understaffing, we should have had them all along, then there would be no increase.

I will hunt again, and until I find it I won't mention it again, but when I do I will let you know.

Please do not call me an idiot again for not knowing you, but without any knowledge of who you are it makes it pointless to discuss sensitive information on a public message forum. People have PMed me agreeing with my general numbers from the seniority list expansion since 2005, but I think from this point forward it is best to keep your diversions out of discussions. I am sorry you are so upset with events of late, but I do feel confident this mess will be over soon. Have you read the transcripts from the court hearing? I did and it certainly sounded even better than when I heard it in person. I look forward to seeing you off LOA 93.

 

[Black Swan]

I guess you are correct. I just took my numbers from the National Mediation Board. You may want to ask them for a recount. Maybe they published the wrong results. 469/5238= 8.9%, that worked too when I was in high school in the early 70's. I still can't figure out this new math...........

Come on, it is GENX math! Gen X thinking. Here is how it goes- a west pilot is hired 17 yrs after an east pilot, then expects to go ahead of him. The real figure is 8.9%, but west math GENX brings it to 2%. This is why this group will never come together. Whatever the outcome, the GENX West factor attempts to skew the data. Remember the CLT picketing event? There were hundreds there. Jetzz applied the GENX factor, and brought it down to a dozen.

 

[Black Swan]

Please do not call me an idiot again for not knowing you, but without any knowledge of who you are it makes it pointless to discuss sensitive information on a public message forum. People have PMed me agreeing with my general numbers from the seniority list expansion since 2005, but I think from this point forward it is best to keep your diversions out of discussions. I am sorry you are so upset with events of late, but I do feel confident this mess will be over soon. Have you read the transcripts from the court hearing? I did and it certainly sounded even better than when I heard it in person. I look forward to seeing you off LOA 93.

You are very intelligent to want to see the East win the LOA 93 pay restoration. It can only benefit you.