US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Are you serious?...

Then changing agents isn't a LEGAL method to get out of pre-existing agreements which was the blanket statement of your's that I replied to...

The re-writing of history is unbelievable.

Yes it is - you quoted a portion of a sentence from the 9th to suit your purposes. You omitted that part that said "that does not do the harm the west fears". So if USAPA can come up with a method that does not do the harm the West fears the Nic can be abandoned. Of course, USAPA hasn't come close to such a solution yet...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

UNQUESTIONABLY RIPE DFR- this term the west throws out all the time. Is this a thing Koontz told you? The UNQUESTIONABLE part is your trademark. Tell us how it is so unquestionable. Remember, you are going to have to convince an unbiased jury without Wake, if it ever gets there. I have a whole list of questions about it right now I could easily bring up. Tops on the list is your unending pursuit of the Nicolau, even after the 9th said it didn't have to be there. So if one of the highest courts has already put it in writing that it is not required, explain how now not using it is now a DFR? Right now, your DFR is questionable with one postulation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The 9th said it so your revisionist history is overruled...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Then changing agents isn't a LEGAL method to get out of pre-existing agreements which was the blanket statement of your's that I replied to...



Yes it is - you quoted a portion of a sentence from the 9th to suit your purposes. You omitted that part that said "that does not do the harm the west fears". So if USAPA can come up with a method that does not do the harm the West fears the Nic can be abandoned. Of course, USAPA hasn't come close to such a solution yet...

Jim

You are twisting the facts. They absolutely did say the west could not be harmed. They also said the Nic was not a requirement. You link the two as if they are mutually required to be inclusive of each other, hand in hand. That is absolutley YOUR interpretation, not the 9ths. They specifically said the NIC did NOT have to be used, only no harm. Now you have to make a solid case for harm. If you link it to the NIC, you have already gone against what they said, and are in danger with your argument from the start.

 

[CallawayGolf]

UNQUESTIONABLY RIPE DFR- this term the west throws out all the time. Is this a thing Koontz told you? The UNQUESTIONABLE part is your trademark. Tell us how it is so unquestionable. Remember, you are going to have to convince an unbiased jury without Wake, if it ever gets there. I have a whole list of questions about it right now I could easily bring up. Tops on the list is your unending pursuit of the Nicolau, even after the 9th said it didn't have to be there. So if one of the highest courts has already put it in writing that it is not required, explain how now not using it is now a DFR? Right now, your DFR is questionable with one postulation.

Again Tashima and Graber (staffers) were speculating and telegraphing that USAPA may be free to abandon the NIC if they were willing to ensure that the final product didn't in fact harm the west. That is, most parties are willing to forego their rights under a contract if the other party is willing to give them more than the stated terms. Thus, the west "might not" bring a DFR charge if doing so gains them less than what there were offered by the new seniority system USAPA crafted (I know its preposterous to think of USAPA doing something to benefit the west so that's why so many still say the NIC is still the only list).

For USAPA getting a non-NIC list past Management is the biggest non-legal obstacle and it has been since day one. Since the 9th didn’t even give USAPA or Management enough rope to hang themselves on in their decision, the impasse between USAPA and Management remains solid as ever. The testimony before judge Silver makes that very clear. For the west, in a post-9th ruling scenario the biggest obstacle is actually having a JCBA to bring a DFR against. The process would be long, but at least a non-NIC JCBA would bring a final resolution to this mess. Until then you saying that the 9th said it doesn’t have to be there just shows a willful ignorance of where this process really is. Answers may be coming sooner than you would like.

 

[767jetz]

I am not debating the size of the international fleet. I am simply saying very few east pilots are going to take a lower raise in the standard size jet and negotiate the widebody rate higher with the Nic in it.

I'm not sure where your getting that. Maybe I'm missing something. I never implied a lower raise for the 320 and higher raise for the 330. I'm talking about industry average for all fleets. Just talking ball park numbers, a 320 f/o making 125/hr is almost what a captain makes now. A 320 capt making 180/hr is a pretty big raise. And it would help ALL captains, not just the few that eventually get to your current capt rate from the right seat.

A contract with the Nic is unachievable. You will NEVER have the numbers.

Thats a ridiculous statement and nothing more than your opinion. The numbers don't support it. USAPA won the election by a matter of 1 or 2%. Have an election and see what happens. You will have your chance soon enough, when the LOA93 grievance fails and the election comes to a town near you.

Every class the east hires, will clearly realize separate ops is the way to go.

Another wild assumption with nothing but your opinion to back it up. A new hire will go to the bottom no matter what list you choose to use. Separate ops will not last forever. Certainly not an entire career. Whatever happens, they will be on the bottom, after every west and east pilot anyway. So why would they want to help you with a magical ticket to the promised land, when they can get a big raise and better quality of life right away. All it takes is the next merger to make your "separate ops" promise vanish into thin air.

You hope they will buy into your ponzie scheme of separate ops just long enough for you to cash in. You are selling them a worthless bag of goods. Anyone can see that. Especially a new hire that hasn't been subject to years and years of your propaganda. That's a fact.

Believe what you want. Better yet, shut us up once and for all by putting a nic/industry average contract out for a vote. No risk for you since you believe it will NEVER pass. Then you have your proof and there would be nothing left for me or anyone else to say. Until then you are just pi$$ing into the wind.

 

[Bear96]

No I didn't.

Legally, you did.

Welcome to the world of collective bargaining.

 

[Bear96]

Every East and West pilot did agree to binding arbitration when ALPA was the bargaining agent. Now they are gone. To use the former is to PERPETUATE the former.

So because you are now represented by USAPA, and USAPA has not reached an agreement for a CBA with USAirways, the USAirways pilots currently do not have a CBA?

USairways could cut your pay by 50% tomorrow without violating a CBA? After all, wouldn't want to "perpetuate" the dead CBA ALPA negotiated when it represented you, right?

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are twisting the facts. They absolutely did say the west could not be harmed. They also said the Nic was not a requirement. You link the two as if they are mutually required to be inclusive of each other, hand in hand.

I link the two? Both are in the same sentence of the 9ths ruling:

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.

There it is in plain English - a solution that doesn't harm the West as feared may be negotiated and ratified without USAPA getting sued for DFR.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

Thats a ridiculous statement and nothing more than your opinion. The numbers don't support it. USAPA won the election by a matter of 1 or 2%. Have an election and see what happens. You will have your chance soon enough, when the LOA93 grievance fails and the election comes to a town near you.

NMB election results, ALPA vs USAPA. 5,238 votes cast, USAPA defeated ALPA by 469 votes. 469 is 8.9% of 5,238 NOT "1 or 2%" as stated above.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I agree that the vote count wasn't within "1 or 2%", but how many votes for USAPA were cast by pilots what won't be able to vote next time? Remember that at the time of the representational election, East had what...1500 pilots on furlough that could vote. Next time those furloughed that didn't accept recall won't be able to vote. That makes a 469 vote margin a slim margin.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

NMB election results, ALPA vs USAPA. 5,238 votes cast, USAPA defeated ALPA by 469 votes. 469 is 8.9% of 5,238 NOT "1 or 2%" as stated above.

Ummm...469 divided by two 234.5. That's a 4.4% margin. I doubt USAPA would even get within 20% of ALPA if the vote were held today. Anyway, water under the bridge and USAPA has sure delivered for the West. Wye River could have been a disaster without any remedies.

Now on to the more important things in life, just got my March line:

Layover in domicile: Trip 1 - 33.5 hrs Trip 2 - 20.5 hrs, Trip 3 - 19 hrs; Trip 4 2 day with 9.2 hrs of flying but pays 10.5, Trip 5 - carry in to April with 29 hrs at home. Oh, and Trip 2 has a deadhead from PHL to CLT, full pay of course.

PBS works pretty well.

 

[Pi brat]

Here it is PI... just for you my silver spoon friend. Would you like a shovel?

Here is what? Is there an attachment or something I'm missing? All I see is a quote.

You ask me questions and I try to answer. I ask you questions and you head down some other blind alley.

I told you I didn't have a may 05 senior list and if you would publish yours I would try understand what you are talking about. You never did. Then you switched from the growth claim to the east had 2200 active pilots in 2005 claim. I asked you how you defined active. You never answered.

Get me those and we can talk, otherwise you have proven nothing and everyone on here except the true idiots out west agree.

 

[Pi brat]

PIB, May 2005 is the last time a list can be referenced before the lifeline was thrown your way. You seemed to have agreed on January 25th of this too, but I guess you changed your mind or decided it was time to throw more diversions in the debate to keep it off topic. In any event, your type of narcism is difficult to have a meaningful conversation with so there is no reason continuing on. Monda has over 600 pilots below him, your seniority list has swelled quite a bit since the merger. The lists tell you this straight up.
I am sorry you are so angry. The support of the AFOs is dwindling, many of us on the west feel this thing will be resolved with a Nicolau contract within a year. The west looks forward to moving on and I believe I speak for all of us. But you need to temper your emotions.

Reading comprehension and context are really not your best subjects, are they? I was addressing cg on why we using May 2005.

Is it a.d.d. or something? Can you really not follow or is this just a game? As the teachers were moving you up just to get rid of you, I bet they warned the next one "Get a flask for your top drawer. You will need it for this one!"

 

[Pi brat]

YGTBSM!!!

Delusions of grandeur running rampant among the east jihadists.

ISYN. You and preshill make great team! Please keep posting!