US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

First of all they don't need your vote. I'm talking about the pilots already flying the 330 & 767 and sick of doing it for an embarrassing pay rate compared to peers at other airlines. I'm talking about pilots who are tired of your BK era work rules. I'm talking about pilots who will be retiring off LOA93 without ever seeing an upgrade.

Secondly, an industry average contract will mean ALL of your pilots will make more money, not just the few lucky enough to upgrade. Not the even fewer who will ever see the tiny number of widebody cockpits you have. Pretty soon most major airline f/o's will be making as much as your 320 captains.

USAPA won with the slightest of margins. And that margin has slipped already. After the LOA 93 grievance is lost, a representational election will not go USAPA's way. No doubt about it. It is just one more empty broken promise by USAPA and just like you claim with ALPA, it will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Let me see....... Go back to ALPA? The entity that negotiated LOA 93,sold out MDA guys, E 190 pay, gave us all the RJ's sold them as needed feed, gave west profit sharing, neglected to negotiate pay parity with west immediately, voted our pension away in the night,re negotiated the DC plan down drastically, gave away pay offset for military on disability, the MEC chair we never got to vote for, the MEC committee guys we never got to vote for, what did I forget????I don't think so. Vote for a contract with the Nic? You really aren't on top of your game Jetzz. Are you really that dense that you think an East pilot would give up a chance to fly the larger stuff, negotiate a large pay increase for it, then open the door for the west pilot to step into what they just subsidized? Let the NIC in which then prevents him/her from ever realizing that pay and position? You really just don't get what is going on here at all.

 

[767jetz]

For anyone that has been here for awhile, Jetz is well known as a UA pilot - he's made it clear. He used to come here and debate CM's latest alphabet soup name for US buying UA - a new transaction with the "Chicago based airline" would be right around the corner about every 4-6 months, supported by "the Washington based airline's" exec's divulging inside information on the jumpseat or "conversations in the exec suite".

Not to put words in Jetz' mouth but I think it's largely the entertainment value of the last 3+ years that has drawn him back to this forum. People like Nos missed their calling - they really should be clowns in the circus.

Jim

Right on the money, BB. But I will add that my interest also includes the desire to see fairness and the rule of law prevail, as well as seeing several friends on the west be able to move forward once and for all with their careers, as should have been from the start of this merger. Last and certainly not least, my interest in seeing this resolved has to do with precedents set in one merger to the next. If USAPA is allowed to walk away from binding arbitration (which I don't think they ever will) it would set the stage for many future battles like this one. As many speculate, consolidation in our industry is not yet over.

During the 2001 merger attempt of US and UA, I argued endlessly with some on this forum about their DOH aspirations and attempted theft of OUR widebody flying and captain positions. When US and HP merged, I warned the west pilots of the east game plan. This entire mess is proof that I was right.

Of course I could say this 100 times over and many of them will still ask the question over and over again. They simply don't want anyone to shine a light on their scheme. And asking why I care, calling me names, making up wild accusations about my ALPA affiliation, and casting dispersions at the UA/CO merger, are just an attempt of desperate people to redirect the conversation and avoid addressing what was actually said.

In the end, they will eventually see that they have the power to bully no one.

 

[767jetz]

Let me see....... Go back to ALPA?

I never said go back to ALPA. I said a new union. Could be Teamsters. Could be someone else. Could be another in house union with a new charter and more pragmatic leadership. You really should not believe all that you here from your girlfriends here. I could care less about US returning to ALPA. IMO ALPA is better off without you.

The entity that negotiated LOA 93,sold out MDA guys, E 190 pay, gave us all the RJ's sold them as needed feed, gave west profit sharing, neglected to negotiate pay parity with west immediately, voted our pension away in the night,re negotiated the DC plan down drastically, gave away pay offset for military on disability, the MEC chair we never got to vote for, the MEC committee guys we never got to vote for, what did I forget????

You seem to be forgetting that the people who did all those things were east pilots.

Vote for a contract with the Nic? Are you really that dense that you think an East pilot would give up a chance to fly the larger stuff, negotiate a large pay increase for it, then open the door for the west pilot to step into what they just subsidized? Let the NIC in which then prevents him/her from ever realizing that pay and position? You really just don't get what is going on here at all.

Actually I get it better than many of you do. Do you realize how few 330's and 767's you have compared to the size of your airline? Your international operation that you tout is miniscule. There are not enough seats in those airplanes for all of you. It just isn't mathematically possible. So there is a large number of east pilots who would never see the bigger airplanes in the first place, or if they did it would be for 1 or 2 years before they retire. Which means that absent the merger, a vast number of you would spend the majority of your career in the smaller airplanes. Do you think Southwest pilots give a hoot about big airplanes? I'd give anything to fly a 737 domestically for eternity at their pay rates. But that is not my lot in life. Nor yours.

What I also understand is that being pragmatic means not everyone will or needs to agree with me or the west. The only ones that really need to agree for the west to prevail are the courts, a jury, or 51% of the US pilots. You on the other hand, you seem to think that everyone on the east agrees with you. It's a position driven by emotion. USAPA did not get elected as your CBA in a landslide with every east pilot's vote. It won by a slim margin, and did so promising things that have yet to materialize. Which means an election today would probably see a different result. It's a fact that an incumbent always loses support in the midterm during economic hard times. It's a statistical certainty.

I don't dispute that DOH will benefit some of you by improving your income and standing through upgrades. Without even touching the fairness issue, I also know that a good contract with Nic would benefit a far greater number of pilots for a far greater period of time and it would happen in a far shorter time frame. So yes, I do believe at this point there is enough dissension, that enough east pilots will vote their wallet when given the opportunity. Cleary and his rubber-stamper furloughed AFO's know this too.

Once again your union has fallen victim to the same politics of the east ALPA MEC. Only this time you have no evil empire to point to as a scapegoat. There is also another driver in this mess that is often overlooked in favor of the more obvious furlough-fodder argument. IMO there are more than a few on the east with eyes on the next land grab in a future merger, and DOH is their only way to position themselves for that dance. You can not deny this because the east already showed their true colors with UA on several occasions. Whether they think it will be UA, AA, or DL, there are some on the east with enough time left, willing to bet the remainder of their career (and everyone else's) on that roulette game.

But as I said repeatedly, we can argue these points until the cows come home. The resolution of your mess lies with either the courts, a vote on a contract, or a representational election. (Or some combination of the three.)

 

[doh nogo]

Now guy, I am the last person who would tell another poster what they should or should not post, but aparently you are, and the moderators have obviously left the building, so I would like to offer a small piece of advice.

You claim BoeingBoy has a relative on the West. That should be easy to prove, either prove it or STFU.

You claim BoeingBoy was an ALPA rep. That should be easy to prove, either prove it or STFU.

You have not offered a single fact to support any of your rantings. What is it with you?

Also, your obsession with 767jetz and UAL is just plain weird. What happened, UAL turned you down and then you got hired at Empire, or you were working at Empire when UAL turned you down?

You hit the ball out of the park with that one. Right on the money. And looks like alot of people agree.

 

[Black Swan]

I never said go back to ALPA. I said a new union. Could be Teamsters. Could be someone else. Could be another in house union with a new charter and more pragmatic leadership. You really should not believe all that you here from your girlfriends here. I could care less about US returning to ALPA. IMO ALPA is better off without you.



You seem to be forgetting that the people who did all those things were east pilots.



Actually I get it better than many of you do. Do you realize how few 330's and 767's you have compared to the size of your airline? Your international operation that you tout is miniscule. There are not enough seats in those airplanes for all of you. It just isn't mathematically possible. So there is a large number of east pilots who would never see the bigger airplanes in the first place, or if they did it would be for 1 or 2 years before they retire. Which means that absent the merger, a vast number of you would spend the majority of your career in the smaller airplanes. Do you think Southwest pilots give a hoot about big airplanes? I'd give anything to fly a 737 domestically for eternity at their pay rates. But that is not my lot in life. Nor yours.

What I also understand is that being pragmatic means not everyone will or needs to agree with me or the west. The only ones that really need to agree for the west to prevail are the courts, a jury, or 51% of the US pilots. You on the other hand, you seem to think that everyone on the east agrees with you. It's a position driven by emotion. USAPA did not get elected as your CBA in a landslide with every east pilot's vote. It won by a slim margin, and did so promising things that have yet to materialize. Which means an election today would probably see a different result. It's a fact that an incumbent always loses support in the midterm during economic hard times. It's a statistical certainty.

I don't dispute that DOH will benefit some of you by improving your income and standing through upgrades. Without even touching the fairness issue, I also know that a good contract with Nic would benefit a far greater number of pilots for a far greater period of time and it would happen in a far shorter time frame. So yes, I do believe at this point there is enough dissension, that enough east pilots will vote their wallet when given the opportunity. Cleary and his rubber-stamper furloughed AFO's know this too.

Once again your union has fallen victim to the same politics of the east ALPA MEC. Only this time you have no evil empire to point to as a scapegoat. There is also another driver in this mess that is often overlooked in favor of the more obvious furlough-fodder argument. IMO there are more than a few on the east with eyes on the next land grab in a future merger, and DOH is their only way to position themselves for that dance. You can not deny this because the east already showed their true colors with UA on several occasions. Whether they think it will be UA, AA, or DL, there are some on the east with enough time left, willing to bet the remainder of their career (and everyone else's) on that roulette game.

But as I said repeatedly, we can argue these points until the cows come home. The resolution of your mess lies with either the courts, a vote on a contract, or a representational election. (Or some combination of the three.)

I am not debating the size of the international fleet. I am simply saying very few east pilots are going to take a lower raise in the standard size jet and negotiate the widebody rate higher with the Nic in it. It simply opens the door to west upgrades forever, on top of east pilots who deserve and will take the widebody. There are enough openings coming that makes it all worthwhile to keep the Nic away. Forever. Ask 767 one if he would vote for the Nic. He is number two. I would bet he would say NO. Your group and you continually understimate the resolve of the East pilots. A contract with the Nic is unachievable. You will NEVER have the numbers. Every class the east hires, will clearly realize separate ops is the way to go. The east new hires are much better with separate ops. They know it, and will vote accordingly. Why would they ever vote a Nic contract in, let alone any contract that combines more seniority on top of them? It makes no sense to do so. They know it. Every west pilot hired, if it ever happens, will realize they have hitched themselves to a lost cause, with no benefit to them ever supporting the Nic. Every new west pilot undermines west support. Those are the facts. Top to bottom, the Nic has no chance of east ratification. The pressure mounts on the west with every bid. They are going to deny themselves a raise, while east pilots will continiually achieve higher and higer pay. Add the PBGC money and military, and the pressure is just not what you think. It gets better day by day.

 

[Ames]

To G.G and all the others that contributed to this debate,

Out in PHX the sky is not blue and you will not convince certain west pilots it is! It's all been laid out, with the bid summaries showing pretty clearly what has happened, to those that can accept the truth.

This has been a little bit of a social experiment for me. The people that I was testing reacted exactly as I thought they would. It's kind of nice to confirm my thoughts, but a little disturbing to think we have to deal with some of them in the future. Hopefully they will stick to line flying and can pull that off a little bit better than following facts and answering simple questions.

Test out. B)

YGTBSM!!!

Delusions of grandeur running rampant among the east jihadists.

 

[Bear96]

Tell us why, when your LOA 93 loss potentially is realized- an East pilot would subsequently throw in the towel, and accept [the Nic] award[?]

Because you agreed to.

 

[Black Swan]

Because you agreed to.

No I didn't. Our ALPA MEC selected Kirch to run the merger, and Kirch picked Nicolau. He picked him knowing full NICOLAU never did a DOH integration and our airline ALWAYS did it this way until KIRCH was appointed by our ALPA MEC. The line pilot had NO input on this. Another reason for supporting USAPA. I objected immediately to this, and added it to the list why ALPA was going to get tossed. ALPA was summarily dismissed, and now we have a new bargaining agent. An agent that does not, and will not support any other integration than DOH. I never agreed to it. The majority of our pilots never agreed to it. Therefore, the numbers and new bargaining agent say NO DEAL!

 

[CallawayGolf]

No I didn't. Our ALPA MEC selected Kirch to run the merger, and Kirch picked Nicolau. He picked him knowing full NICOLAU never did a DOH integration and our airline ALWAYS did it this way until KIRCH was appointed by our ALPA MEC. The line pilot had NO input on this. Another reason for supporting USAPA. I objected immediately to this, and added it to the list why ALPA was going to get tossed. ALPA was summarily dismissed, and now we have a new bargaining agent. An agent that does not, and will not support any other integration than DOH. I never agreed to it. The majority of our pilots never agreed to it. Therefore, the numbers and new bargaining agent say NO DEAL!

You clearly don't understand the legal definition of agency. If your agent agreed to a contract or an arbitration process for you, then you legally agreed to the same as if you had signed your name on the bottom line. Every east and west pilot agreed to binding arbitration because their agents agreed to it on their behalf. Changing CBA's after the fact doesn't mean you or they aren't bound by those preexisting agreements. The only way to personally extricate yourself from them is to terminate your employment relationship with US Airways thereby forfeiting the rights and obligations made while you were still in the employ of the Company.

Looks like judge Silver is quite clear on this, but there's no telling yet what that will mean in terms of the DJ.

 

[Black Swan]

You clearly don't understand the legal definition of agency. If your agent agreed to a contract or an arbitration process for you, then you legally agreed to the same as if you had signed your name on the bottom line. Every east and west pilot agreed to binding arbitration because their agents agreed to it on their behalf. Changing CBA's after the fact doesn't mean you or they aren't bound by those preexisting agreements. The only way to personally extricate yourself from them is to terminate your employment relationship with US Airways thereby forfeiting the rights and obligations made while you were still in the employ of the Company.

Looks like judge Silver is quite clear on this, but there's no telling yet what that will mean in terms of the DJ.

No, USAPA did not agree to the binding arbitration. They had nothing to do with it, and this is where Koontz and your legal amateurs lead you astray. How many times can you guys continue to fly in the face of the 9th and keep re writing what they said? They specifically said the Nic does not necessarily have to be in the contract, then you come right back and say it does. I say they win, and you lose. Every East and West pilot did agree to binding arbitration when ALPA was the bargaining agent. Now they are gone. To use the former is to PERPETUATE the former. Not required. Endorsed by the 9th, distorted by the West. I'll take the 9th over a west pilot any day, hands down......

 

[Black Swan]

You clearly don't understand the legal definition of agency. If your agent agreed to a contract or an arbitration process for you, then you legally agreed to the same as if you had signed your name on the bottom line. Every east and west pilot agreed to binding arbitration because their agents agreed to it on their behalf. Changing CBA's after the fact doesn't mean you or they aren't bound by those preexisting agreements. The only way to personally extricate yourself from them is to terminate your employment relationship with US Airways thereby forfeiting the rights and obligations made while you were still in the employ of the Company.

Looks like judge Silver is quite clear on this, but there's no telling yet what that will mean in terms of the DJ.

You obviously haven't figured out the best way to dodge a preexisting agreement LEGALLY, is to elect a new bargaining agent. It happened a long, long time ago.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You obviously haven't figured out the best way to dodge a preexisting agreement LEGALLY, is to elect a new bargaining agent.

Why are you still on LOA 93 then???

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Why are you still on LOA 93 then???

Jim

Are you serious? We are under LOA 93 because the East pilots stupidly agreed to it, and it was IMPLEMENTED, voted in under ALPA. There was no other agency other than ALPA. Are you going to come out and say the Nic was IMPLEMENTED while ALPA was in? It never made it to agreement while ALPA was in. Never accepted by the company in a legal sense with signatures of all parties. We LEGALLY, elected a NEW bargaining agent that circumvented its' implementation. You and the west are the ONLY ones who cannot get it in your heads that the 9th came out and said the Nic was not a required provision. The re-writing of history is unbelievable.

 

[Black Swan]

...

 

[CallawayGolf]

No, USAPA did not agree to the binding arbitration. They had nothing to do with it, and this is where Koontz and your legal amateurs lead you astray. How many times can you guys continue to fly in the face of the 9th and keep re writing what they said? They specifically said the Nic does not necessarily have to be in the contract, then you come right back and say it does. I say they win, and you lose. Every East and West pilot did agree to binding arbitration when ALPA was the bargaining agent. Now they are gone. To use the former is to PERPETUATE the former. Not required. Endorsed by the 9th, distorted by the West. I'll take the 9th over a west pilot any day, hands down......

Well I disagree on your interpretation of what the 9th "specifically" said. Furthermore, I don’t believe USAPA (and supporters such as yourself) are comprehending the warnings contained in the majority opinion issued by the 9th. They weren’t shy about delving into speculation and clairvoyance on the matter which demonstrates how out of touch with their own roles and responsibilities they are as federal judges. Nevertheless the warning they sent to USAPA was that if they devise another seniority system for the pilots of US Airways it needs to be DFR-proof by not bringing the harm the west fears. If USAPA manages to ratify a seniority scheme that does result in the harm the west fears, it will result in an unquestionably ripe DFR matter to make its way through the courts once again. Of course the 9th failed (as they did and do in so many ways which is they proclivity it would seem) to recognize that the Company will not allow itself to be exposed to the liability of a non-NIC JCBA. So, it really doesn’t matter what the 9th speculated on regarding a new list since a non-NIC list will never be accepted by Management short of a complete release of legal liability by judge Silver or a higher court.

I’ve already speculated that 2011 will be a very bad year for USAPA. So far, with USAPA meetings going into pandemonium and violence and an ex-president charging the current USAPA leadership with deplorable conduct and incompetence, it seems my speculation is right on target. Now we wait for more antics from USAPA and $eham until the LOA93 decision and the DJ ruling come in. Fun times to just sit back and watch USAPA implode.