US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I’ll interject not because I have irrefutable facts regarding the number of active east pilot from five years ago to today, but because I want to see this subtopic come to a conclusion. There are way too many variables that go into the “active” pilot analysis to make a proper and undisputed determination

So, let’s not try to determine growth but rather hypothesize on if the east pilots have seen improvement gains since emerging from bankruptcy and merging with HP.
1.Did the east increase its international flying since the merger?

a. Are there more or less international cities served in 2011 vs. 2005?
b. Are there more or less total international flights in 2011 vs. 2005?
c. Are there more or less ETOPS aircraft flown by the east in 2011 vs. 2005?
d. Does an increase in international destinations represent a benefit to east pilots?​

2. While many east domestic route changes have occurred since 2005, has there been a measurable decrease in the number of east pilots required for east operations? I assume the number of east pilots newly furloughed from 2005 to 2011 would be a sound metric.
3. Are there more or less pilots on furlough in 2011 vs. 2005?
4. Despite the age 65 rule change, did any east pilots upgrade to the left seat between 2005 and 2011? If so, did these upgrades occur because of early retirements or because the east operations required captain positions above and beyond the left seat attrition rates?
5. What is the net increase/decrease in EMB190 AC in 2011 vs. 2005?

a. Does an increase in east-assigned EMB190 AC benefit east pilots?
b. Do EMB190’s modify the minimum feet requirements? If not does this flying represent a benefit to east pilots at the most junior positions on the east seniority list or not?​

6. Did the most junior active pilots such as Monda improve more in seniority status (defined by having more pilots junior than the baseline year of 2005) from 2005 to 20011 in comparison to 2001 to 2005? Is this improvement in seniority status a benefit to those junior east pilots (say the bottom 25% of seniority numbers (active or inactive in May of 2005)?

I know my thoughts on the above are that the east pilots have enjoyed many benefits based on these factors that were not available to them in the pre-merger timeframe. The number of east pilots may or may not have “grown” since the merger (too many apple and orange variables to say for sure), but there have been numerous gains for the east when one objectively compares May 2005 to where the east pilots are today. Can you agree with that PI?

If you are tired of S.S.D.D., you need to go somewhere else. I haven't seen many original thoughts around here in a while.

I will try to answer your questions.

1) Yes
a-d) Yes
2) Yes, see the bid summaries I have already posted showing fewer positions now than in '05.
3) Less, because there are none. They returned to replace pilots.
4) Yes, for many reasons
5)Yes
a-b Depends. It has been a mixed blessing that we will all pay for in the end to get the pay right, or they will go away. Many F/Os I flew with would have rather been furloughed than to fly it at the current rates, but the company would not let them have vol. furlough so several filed bankruptcy instead. The fleet does not apply to the min fleet, as I have pointed out many times already.
6)Yes, after sliding for years the slide stopped and with pilots leaving, despite fewer hulls, they moved up. They actually moved up quite a bit while Nic was writing how they had no future.

Yes, I agree there have been gains, because our attrition outgrew our shrinkage. It would be the same on the west, but like the east of old, you shrinkage outran your attrition.

p.s. You know something I was surprised about in this debate? Dates are important, and no one really picked up on them. Clear sort of did, but I think it was more of a stumble. Maybe that means that memories are fading and stuff that really doesn't matter any more will be left behind.

 

[luvthe9]

I was trying to simplify the perspectives of the other posters to Pi Brat, in an effort to help end the rather lengthy disagreement between them. What part of that is "foaming at the mouth?"... "dude?" I didn't even state an opinion on the matter.

You really are an angry "dude," completely spring loaded to pounce on anyone that even utters the word Nic, without even trying to comprehend what they are trying to say.

Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic!
NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC!
NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU!!!

There. Now after you stop hyperventilating, realize that I agree with you in that nothing means anything until a ratified contract emerges. IMO (and that of many outside of USAPA) it will eventually include the Nic. But not you, me, nor anyone else on this forum or else where will determine it. It will either be resolved by the courts, or alternately when the LOA 93 grievance is lost and a majority of east and west pilots give USAPA the boot and decide enough is enough. That's not salivating. It's just a desire to see justice and the rule of law prevail.

Now go have a cold one and relax a bit.

You make absolutely no sense. Tell us why, when your LOA 93 loss potentially is realized- an East pilot would subsequently throw in the towel, and accept a flawed award that would immediately compound the financial loss by totally removing a widebody upgrade and its' raise? Accepting the Nic would throw out the insurance of NOT accepting the Nic which allows for the attrition to kick an east pilot right up the ladder above a pay level a west pilot will NEVER see.Remember, their largest jet, the 757 pays the same rate as a 320. So much for their great contract. The highest pay level they will ever see, ever, is 320 pay. We on the other hand, have two more levels to go up. Two they never will see. So we are very aware of their career expectations. Your postulation reeks of your obsessive desire to see the corrupt ALPA return. I guarantee you, that, will NEVER happen. We would vote in the AFA long before ALPA. You make NO sense.

 

[luvthe9]

The reason why Monda has about 600-700 pilots below him is due to recalling pilots prior the age 65 change and due to pilots going out on long term disability. Plus many recalled pilots are still on miltary orders after taking a recall.

While St. Nic was trying to put together the ALPA SLI, USAIR was losing around 200-300 pilots a year prior to age 65 change. Those positions had to be filled by the pilots now below Monda. The snapshot was taken two years before the St. Nic award and during this time recalled pilots were filling the vacancies prior to the age change. When age 65 hit 3 years ago the movement went down to around 50 a year. There are less positions now then there was in 2005.

It is amazing how dense some Westies are in not following this logic. It is exactly the reason why the Nic was so flawed and shows why the West is so desperate in taking those vacancies created on the East.

.Once again. There has been no growth on the East side. Just planes being replaced. Much domestic flying went to the West and the East used those spots lost to add some international. Trying to say the east has grown is really low and shows how blinded they are by greed.

Exactly. The west pilots just cannot get it through their skulls that we want NOTHING to do with them when they continue to talk Nicolau, and will never vote in any deal with the Nic. They can go on forever, and have their chum from UAL try to convince us. We know better. We vote NO. The attrition is just beginning to kick in. This is going to be interesting when they finally get what they are going to miss by holding their ticket.

 

[luvthe9]

I never said they didn't. You guys just can't help but act like attack dogs. I didn't think you retire the 600 number that has been brought up by others. Maybe you did. There could be other factors, as BB brought up. And I'm not implying that the 600 number the west claims is growth is even accurate.

As I stated before, I am not stating an opinion on the subject. I was trying to interject a simplified explanation to Pi Brat of where it appears to me that the 2 sides of that debate are misunderstanding each other... ie. the definition of "active" and "growth."

I say HELLO, and that is acting like an attack dog? Must be that time of month.....................

 

[fodase]

Well folks why are we still discussing if the Nic is fair or not? The bottom line is it is either going to be the Nic. or something else, there are no negotiations or options. As the west has said anything less than Nic. and usapa and/or the company are in court. Please read judge silver comments about the harm she sees to the west so you can figure out where this is all going to end up. Also if a merger happens before a contract, guess what is the only list that has been accepted by usairways and will be used in sli? Also you need to read usapa's founders letter to the phl pilots to grasp what a complete mess this creation the east calls a union is. If any of you clowns think usapa will ever deliver doh or a contract, I have some very nice ocean front property in maricopa to sell you.

 

[CallawayGolf]

If you are tired of S.S.D.D., you need to go somewhere else. I haven't seen many original thoughts around here in a while.

I will try to answer your questions.


Yes, I agree there have been gains, because our attrition outgrew our shrinkage. It would be the same on the west, but like the east of old, you shrinkage outran your attrition.

p.s. You know something I was surprised about in this debate? Dates are important, and no one really picked up on them. Clear sort of did, but I think it was more of a stumble. Maybe that means that memories are fading and stuff that really doesn't matter any more will be left behind.

Thanks for the reply. You are one of the rare ones on this board willing to answer questions directly and I appreciate that.

Of course I don't agree that that those gains (most of them anyway) can be explained by attrition alone, but neither of us can empirically prove our position so it will just be a difference of opinion. One more question, if those gains didn't occur to the benefit of the east but management just maintained the status quo on international operations and kept the east fleet at minimum hulls plus two, how many recalls, upgrades, and new hires would you expect to have? A best-guess percentage is sufficient.

Thanks.

 

[sumadarson]

I never said they didn't. You guys just can't help but act like attack dogs.

How is the alpa flight pay loss check doing. You made all the meetings for ual correct.

You have 1400 plus pilots on furlough. You are on the bottom of the pilot pay. You will not get anything untill the end of 2011 and have been trying since 2007.

Tell leo to get ready to defend himself in court soon.

 

[BoeingBoy]

...

Still those baseless accusations Nos? I'm still waiting for your proof...

 

[Pi brat]

Thanks for the reply. You are one of the rare ones on this board willing to answer questions directly and I appreciate that.

Of course I don't agree that that those gains (most of them anyway) can be explained by attrition alone, but neither of us can empirically prove our position so it will just be a difference of opinion. One more question, if those gains didn't occur to the benefit of the east but management just maintained the status quo on international operations and kept the east fleet at minimum hulls plus two, how many recalls, upgrades, and new hires would you expect to have? A best-guess percentage is sufficient.

Thanks.

Well, it's a WAG, but from all the numbers thrown out here I would have to say that we are within 2 of min fleet, plus the E190s. Several 73, 75 and 320s were replaced by A330s/757 ETOPS which require an extra pilot per(there is some domestic 757 flying that doesn't require an IRO, but let's just go with it), so that is around 12x7=84. The 15 E190s are easy since the bid shows 173 positions. Say another 20 or so for the E190 training dept. Throw in 30 extra check airmen for training float(I have no idea on this one. I've seen no net A320 check airman increase in a while). So that's 307 that I can think of, but again, it's a WAG and the E190 pay is so bad it's benefit can be argued. But you have to remember we had 270 in May 2005. 270-217 is a loss of 53. 53x14=742 pilots not needed.

 

[Pi brat]

Still those baseless accusations Nos? I'm still waiting for your proof...

Still waiting for a simple answer.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, it's a WAG, but from all the numbers thrown out here I would have to say that we are within 2 of min fleet, plus the E190s. Several 73, 75 and 320s were replaced by A330s/757 ETOPS which require an extra pilot per(there is some domestic 757 flying that doesn't require an IRO, but let's just go with it), so that is around 12x7=84. The 15 E190s are easy since the bid shows 173 positions. Say another 20 or so for the E190 training dept. Throw in 30 extra check airmen for training float(I have no idea on this one. I've seen no net A320 check airman increase in a while). So that's 307 that I can think of, but again, it's a WAG and the E190 pay is so bad it's benefit can be argued. But you have to remember we had 270 in May 2005. 270-217 is a loss of 53. 53x14=742 pilots not needed.

CallawayGolf,

I reread you question and that didn't really answer it. I have no idea since we can't really come up with how many have actually been recalled and hired. The above is more a summary of how the replacement of narrow body aircraft with wide body T/A and E190 affected employment.

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA president Mike Cleary told a colleague today that USAPA is unable to obtain a new contract for US Airways' pilots. In my opinion, Cleary is correct because USAPA cannot get a deal until all sections of the contract, including Section 22, are complete. Therefore, under USAPA US Airways' pilots will be the lowest paid most over worked pilots in the industry for an indefinate period.

 

[Pi brat]

Please read judge silver comments about the harm she sees to the west so you can figure out where this is all going to end up.

I read them and I can't get a take on her or how she will decide.

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA president Mike Cleary told a colleague today that USAPA is unable to obtain a new contract for US Airways' pilots. In my opinion, Cleary is correct because USAPA cannot get a deal until all sections of the contract, including Section 22, are complete. Therefore, under USAPA US Airways' pilots will be the lowest paid most over worked pilots in the industry for an indefinate period.

Hey USA320, while you are here, did you get my earlier question?

"In my opinion, Cleary is correct because USAPA cannot get a deal until all sections of the contract, including Section 22, are complete."

Really? Did you read that before you posted it? I don't really recall getting a contract before without closing all the sections. Have we? I know we closed a lot out with some really lousy language............

 

[CactusPilot1]

USAPA president Mike Cleary told a colleague today that USAPA is unable to obtain a new contract for US Airways' pilots. In my opinion, Cleary is correct because USAPA cannot get a deal until all sections of the contract, including Section 22, are complete. Therefore, under USAPA US Airways' pilots will be the lowest paid most over worked pilots in the industry for an indefinate period.

Cleary is just figuring that out? I wonder what made the light come on? Talk about a dim bulb.