US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

This is what Nicolau had to say about “active” pilots or how he defined active pilots. As of January 1, 2007 he considered:
East active pilots 2479 Captains 1184 F/O’s 1298 Current bidders Captains 1201 F/O’s 1413
An increase of 135 since the merger.

West active pilots 1662 Captains 857 F/O’s 805 Current bidders Captains 694 F/O’s 693
The west has lost 275 pilots not replaced since the merger.

The first step in creating the Integrated List is to temporarily extract from the January 1, 2007 lists those non-flying pilots and those on leaves of absence (MGT, LOA and MED). The Integrated List will begin with a top-tier consisting of the first 423 US Airways pilots on the extracted US Airways list. Once the 423 senior active flying pilots are properly placed on the top of the list and Monda and Odell are placed immediately before Colello, the portion of the list between 424 and Monda/Odell is to be integrated as follows, an America West pilot first and ties broken by crediting the older of the two pilots:

A ratio based on 167 and 90 B757 Captains
A ratio based on 873 and 767 A320/B737 Captains
A•ratio based on 176 and 87 B757 First Officers
A ratio based on 840 and 718 A320/B737 First Officers.

Following this, all pilots extracted from the lists are to be reinserted into the Integrated List immediately ahead of the next most junior pilot from the extracted pilot's List of .January 1, 2007. 5 Expect for the position noted by Captain Broda on one point, our view, taking into account the attrition rate of both groups and all the factors that must be considered and balanced in any merger, leads us to the conclusion, despite that difference, as well as others that have since been resolved, that the List achieves, as well as any list can, the objectives of ALPA Merger Policy in this case.
(what was that about ignoring ALPA merger policy?)

5 Reinserting the pilots extracted from the top of the list brings the total number to 517 rather than 423. However, more than 70% of that difference is made up of pilots on long-term medical leave and of those most have been on such leaves for more than two years.

 

[sumadarson]

It's now year 3, has USAPA delivered on a single promise?

Early USAPA Promises

 

[USA320Pilot]

Dependent on whether or not USAPA wins the LOA 93 greivance, US Airways' pilots cannot get a pay raise until all sections of the joint contract are negotiated. USAPA's NAC has not closed a single economic section, unlike ALPA that had closed about 80% of the joint contract.

Following USAPA's certification the NAC unTA'ed every section closed by ALPA's JNC. For more informaation on what USAPA unTA'ed click on the links below:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/NotesComprehensiveProposal_ALPA_1_May_30_2007.pdf

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/AAA_Status_of_JNC_Negotiations_February_27_2007.pdf

During JNC discussions ALPA entered the "close out" phase of negotiatons when Scott Kirby joined the discussions. The company's opener was an East 17% pay raise and Lyle Hogg indicated he was authorized to provide a 20% raise.

Here is a link to the JNC's counter pay rate proposal:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/AAASection3_Company_1_5_8_07.pdf

And, USAPA has an inexperienced NAC that has never closed a contract with a suspect Professional Negotiator. Click here for more informaiton:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/NoNegotiatorsAtAll.pdf

US Airways' pilots have sacrificed a large amount of income during USAPA's tenure. Click on the link below for more information:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/LetsPlayJeopardy.pdf

With USAPA's current strategy it will be years-and-years from now until US Airways pilots obtain a new contract because of the Section 22 seniority integration fight.

For a comprehensive review of USAPA's Update on November 8, 2010 titled "Just weeks from a contract" and Other Urban Myths click here:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/Real-JNC-TermSheets.pdf

With USAPA placing US Airways and 32,000 jobs at risk because US Airways likely cannot merge and is the most vulnerable legacy airline people need to understand the true effects of the Nicolau Award. With its limited ability to raise capital US Airways may be industry shock or energy volatility event away from entering bankruptcy because the company may be too small to survive. Thus, every US Airways employee should click on the links below for more information on what the Nicolau Award truly means:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/TheTrueEffectsOfTheNicolauAward.pdf

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/LetsPlayJeopardy.pdf

This year there should be more clarity with the pending LOA 93 Pay Freeze Greivance decision and Judge Silver ruling on USAPA's motion for dismissal. Meanwhile, why are these cases taking so long and is USAPA attempting to delay both proceedings as alleged?

Click on the link below for more information:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/WhyTheDelayOnTheLOA93Decision.pdf

 

[Pi brat]

This is what Nicolau had to say about “active” pilots or how he defined active pilots. As of January 1, 2007 he considered:
East active pilots 2479 Captains 1184 F/O’s 1298 Current bidders Captains 1201 F/O’s 1413
An increase of 135 since the merger.

West active pilots 1662 Captains 857 F/O’s 805 Current bidders Captains 694 F/O’s 693
The west has lost 275 pilots not replaced since the merger.

Thanks for that clear, maybe preshill will believe St. Nic and a westie, or at least tell us what her delusional definition of "active" is.

One problem with your numbers as they apply to our discussion. That was as of January 1, 2007, a year and a half after the merger agreement, and I'm guessing near the bottoming out of the east(I will see if I have a bid for that time period). Preshill's original statement referenced May, 2005.

 

[sumadarson]

It's now year 3, has USAPA delivered on a single promise?

Yes. Your research capabilities are sorely lacking to ask such a question. You sound biased.

 

[prechilill]

Because she does not have the INTEGRITY to admit she was wrong. She keeps moving the shells, but the pea is nowhere to be found, and Jim has to help in what he feels is the battle against DOH. It really stung him about 20 years ago.

I don't know about the staffing. We might actually be less efficient now than 2005. We we really understaffed then, some reserves were hitting their rolling average, and the cap was always at 95. But you are right, you have to look at everything.

I am perplexed why you are so angry at me, I am not the person who removed your silver spoon from your mouth. What your daddy may have promised you about your prospects at USAir is not and never was reality. Your selective use of facts and twisting of numbers only hurts you in the end and it is obvious to all that you cannot reconcile how your seniority list can grow by 600 numbers of pilots reporting to work and not call that growth. So be it, that is your decision to remain in your insular world.
Numbers do not lie, interpretations can. You choose how you want to look at things, the rest of us see 600 more names on the east list and call that what it is: growth.

 

[Pi brat]

Here is a link to the JNC's counter pay rate proposal:

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/AAASection3_Company_1_5_8_07.pdf

USA320,

I'm trying to keep my "facts" straight. This is the Kirby, not the JNC's counter, right? I hope. See any problems with this offer? Do you remember Kirby saying that the "20%" wasn't true, and it was the Kirby that was and is on the table? Have you been following the generous offers from the company to the F/As?

Fact seekers everywhere look forward to you answers.

 

[cleardirect]

Early USAPA Promises

ROTFLMAO!!!! That was good for a laugh. And what has usapa achieved? Looks exactly like the east ALPA to me.

Cleary. $191,000. last year.

Fights in the office, fights over the office, political games, personal attacks. usapa not about the Nicolau, Ha ha.

What did that thing say? That usapa was not formed just to get out of the Nicolau. Right, let's look at the last presidents message and the joint east statement. Sure is a lot of talk about seniority.

We have been successful in keeping the path clear for us to negotiate a solution to the seniority issue that will produce a ratifiable contract.

We will accomplish our goals. Your union's response to those who want us to fail has been uncomplicated and steadfast. We remain absolutely committed to the goals that you have demanded -- resolve the seniority dispute, get a new contract and build a union from scratch that we can all be proud of.
Some pilots want you to feel demoralized in a last gasp hope that we will be forced back to our predecessor's bargaining proposals on seniority. Each of them wants you to break your resolve by convincing you that we are not, in fact, achieving our goals. But their problem is that we are achieving our goals. The seniority litigation known as the Addington case is now behind us

Few believed that we could win the representational election, create a highly-functional independent union, or win the seniority litigation.

The goals and objectives created by you back then are still valid today. These goals and our direction are defined and represented not only by our beliefs but codified in our Constitution and Bylaws.

(What is it that is codified in the C&BL? Is industry standard contract in the C&BL's?)

We vow to stand together and fight for the collective rights of all US Airways pilots and remain focused on the promises and goals that are the foundation of USAPA. At times our debates may be passionate, but this does not mean that we are losing that focus. Our ultimate goal will always be to protect your union and deliver an industry-standard contract with a seniority integration methodology using date of hire with appropriate conditions and restrictions as mandated by you in our C&BLs.

(There it is, that is what is codified in the C&BL's)

For an organization that you say was not formed to force DOH it sure spends a lot of time telling it's member that is the primary goal. How you guys continue to tell the story with a straight face that usapa was anything other than a way out of the Nicolau is beyond me.

 

[Pi brat]

I am perplexed why you are so angry at me, I am not the person who removed your silver spoon from your mouth. What your daddy may have promised you about your prospects at USAir is not and never was reality. Your selective use of facts and twisting of numbers only hurts you in the end and it is obvious to all that you cannot reconcile how your seniority list can grow by 600 numbers of pilots reporting to work and not call that growth. So be it, that is your decision to remain in your insular world.
Numbers do not lie, interpretations can. You choose how you want to look at things, the rest of us see 600 more names on the east list and call that what it is: growth.

You are perplexed when you type such condescending drivel as this? I can assure you that I have never had a silver spoon in my mouth, and my father never promised me anything about my career, especially with respect to US Air, since I started at Piedmont. But hey, why not make that up as you don't most things you post, right? Did it ever occur to you that when post assumptions like that about someone you don't even know how foolish it makes you look? Maybe try to pull your silver spoon out of your ass and just answer the questions instead of twisting. I've asked to show the '05 list-you haven't. I've asked you what you meant by "active"-you haven't. I've shown you copies of our bids and you ignore them.

What is obvious to all, at least the ones with a brain, is that you don't know what you are talking about. Even one of your own, cleardirect showed you your numbers are wrong, at least selective ones.

You and people like you are damaging to our company and our profession. We have differences, but when people act like you do, east and west, it makes the task of recovering from the disaster of an merger even harder. You are arrogant, condescending, rude and a lot of the time flat out wrong.

 

[prechilill]

I can assure you that I have never had a silver spoon in my mouth, and my father never promised me anything about my career, especially with respect to US Air, since I started at Piedmont.

Your responses and tone say otherwise...

If you ever care to reconcile the discrepancy of 600 additional pilots between '05 and 11 and explain how that is not growth feel free to post it. You haven't yet and I honestly don't think you ever will.

 

[Pi brat]

Your responses and tone say otherwise...

If you ever care to reconcile the discrepancy of 600 additional pilots between '05 and 11 and explain how that is not growth feel free to post it. You haven't yet and I honestly don't think you ever will.

If you knew my background you would understand what an idiot you sound like. Have you ever seen the show Dirty Jobs? I've done a few Mike might not even touch, at least not for long.

If you care to answer the simple question of what you considered "active" in May 2005, get back to me. It has been explained, numbers and examples given, by east and west posters-you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

 

[CallawayGolf]

If you knew my background you would understand what an idiot you sound like. Have you ever seen the show Dirty Jobs? I've done a few Mike might not even touch, at least not for long.

If you care to answer the simple question of what you considered "active" in May 2005, get back to me. It has been explained, numbers and examples given, by east and west posters-you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

I’ll interject not because I have irrefutable facts regarding the number of active east pilot from five years ago to today, but because I want to see this subtopic come to a conclusion. There are way too many variables that go into the “active” pilot analysis to make a proper and undisputed determination

So, let’s not try to determine growth but rather hypothesize on if the east pilots have seen improvement gains since emerging from bankruptcy and merging with HP.
1.Did the east increase its international flying since the merger?

a. Are there more or less international cities served in 2011 vs. 2005?
b. Are there more or less total international flights in 2011 vs. 2005?
c. Are there more or less ETOPS aircraft flown by the east in 2011 vs. 2005?
d. Does an increase in international destinations represent a benefit to east pilots?​

2. While many east domestic route changes have occurred since 2005, has there been a measurable decrease in the number of east pilots required for east operations? I assume the number of east pilots newly furloughed from 2005 to 2011 would be a sound metric.
3. Are there more or less pilots on furlough in 2011 vs. 2005?
4. Despite the age 65 rule change, did any east pilots upgrade to the left seat between 2005 and 2011? If so, did these upgrades occur because of early retirements or because the east operations required captain positions above and beyond the left seat attrition rates?
5. What is the net increase/decrease in EMB190 AC in 2011 vs. 2005?

a. Does an increase in east-assigned EMB190 AC benefit east pilots?
b. Do EMB190’s modify the minimum feet requirements? If not does this flying represent a benefit to east pilots at the most junior positions on the east seniority list or not?​

6. Did the most junior active pilots such as Monda improve more in seniority status (defined by having more pilots junior than the baseline year of 2005) from 2005 to 20011 in comparison to 2001 to 2005? Is this improvement in seniority status a benefit to those junior east pilots (say the bottom 25% of seniority numbers (active or inactive in May of 2005)?

I know my thoughts on the above are that the east pilots have enjoyed many benefits based on these factors that were not available to them in the pre-merger timeframe. The number of east pilots may or may not have “grown” since the merger (too many apple and orange variables to say for sure), but there have been numerous gains for the east when one objectively compares May 2005 to where the east pilots are today. Can you agree with that PI?

 

[767jetz]

If you care to answer the simple question of what you considered "active" in May 2005, get back to me. It has been explained, numbers and examples given, by east and west posters-you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.

 

[Barrister]

Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.

What part don't you get JETZ we could greet the West guys with open arms and flowers and NIC doesn't mean a damn thing
until it is part of a CBA. This foamimg at the mouth to get NIC tells us all we need to know.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

I am perplexed why you are so angry at me, I am not the person who removed your silver spoon from your mouth. What your daddy may have promised you about your prospects at USAir is not and never was reality. Your selective use of facts and twisting of numbers only hurts you in the end and it is obvious to all that you cannot reconcile how your seniority list can grow by 600 numbers of pilots reporting to work and not call that growth. So be it, that is your decision to remain in your insular world.
Numbers do not lie, interpretations can. You choose how you want to look at things, the rest of us see 600 more names on the east list and call that what it is: growth.

Dude...you think it's bad now wait 2 years OMG

NICDOA
NPJB