US Pilots Labor Discussion

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USAPA founders speak.

What is the state of our Union today? In short, it is dreadful!
Notice: This letter has not been endorsed by Jamie Weidner or Eric Jordan

Philadelphia USAPA pilots:



We are writing you to ask for your support of Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan as your next PHL BPR Vice Chairman Representatives. They are good men without a lot of baggage from ALPA, and they bring fresh ideas and the spirit of volunteerism that our union needs.

We note the other two candidates Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer are in the President’s pocket. They haven’t got an original idea between themselves, nothing more than Mike Cleary rubber stamps. Jamie and Eric answer to nobody; they think for themselves and are ready and willing to do the work for our pilots.

What is the state of our Union? In short it is dreadful! Our president is acting like a dictator. As an example, it has now taken 5 meetings to move the offices in Charlotte. Mike Cleary has used delay, obfuscation and dilatory parliamentary procedures to stop the will of 2/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives regarding a simple office move.

There have been at least two recorded physical attacks in our Union, both directed at Secretary Treasurer Rob Streble. The first involved Mike Cleary. He placed his hands around Rob Streble’s neck in an argument over a billing for liquor on a credit card, which is against the USAPA Constitution. The second incident and more recent, involves Vice President Randy Mowrey pushing Rob Steble into a metal door frame over an argument regarding the ability of the Secretary Treasurer to call a meeting at the request of 1/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives. This duty is clearly described and detailed in the Union Operating Manual. The most recent event was reported to the Charlotte Police. The BPR is aware of BOTH these allegations, as is USAPA outside legal counsel. Our current VP has a history of physical confrontation. He was tried but not convicted in FL of an incident involving the threat of violence. He was arrested for this event. They say where there is smoke there is fire, we don’t need the likes of Randy Mowery bringing his physical confrontational style into our own offices. Both Cleary and Mowrey need to resign for the good our Union.

Our union’s communication policy fails to produce complete and accurate information. You, the line pilot are not getting an accurate picture. You are not hearing civil discussion or debate. Our current President says that this is divisive and reminiscent of the old ALPA. BULLSHIT! No democratic body can hold itself up as such without allowing and supporting vigorous and spirited debate. Our current BPR is not fulfilling their leadership role in telling you the line pilot about what is going on. First and foremost they must communicate to you to tell you what is happening at our meetings and they must speak frankly. They have not been doing this. They have been told that to speak against the “company line” from Mike Cleary is dangerous and divisive. I urge them to do so and in their own words describe what they think the state of our Union is and what the major issues facing our pilots are. Our pilots are in the dark.

The recent PHX update on the Office move that is posted on several web boards and available on the USAPA web site is titled “What does it take to move an Office.” It is an accurate and unbiased description of what has been transpiring in our union regarding the Office move. Please read it. It describes how the current leadership is manipulating the democratic process to attempt to thwart the will of 2/3 of the BPR.

We have a major difference with the West in the seniority issue. Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan support Date of Hire as is specified in the Constitution. This is a guiding principle of our union and it is enshrined in the Constitution. However, absent the seniority issue we work with the West reps as members in good standing of USAPA. Brian Pflanzer and others have painted anyone who would cooperate with the West on issues other than seniority as traitors and supporters of the Nicolau award .It is a boldfaced DAMN lie. In fact, the mere act of not working with the West BPR members as equal members threatens our very charter. This cannot stand; they are a part of this Union and have the right to participate without any bias associated with outside litigation.

It is ridiculous to assume that any member who would call a West pilot friend or deal with him in a business like manner is somehow a traitor to the East. Brian Pflanzer has accused a PHL rep of being just such a traitor because West and East Reps have voted together on some issues unrelated to seniority. The word Union denotes coming together of those persons who labor in our craft and derive that Unity from our association. The seniority issue does divide us but there are many more issues that help unite us. Using idiotic words like traitor and painting any West pilot as the enemy is just plain stupid and shows a basic lack of understanding of the entire concept of a union.

We both worked quietly behind the scenes as Mike Cleary’s troubled behavior tainted everything we had worked for in starting this fine Union. He only left the ALPA nipple mere weeks before the election, and paid himself handsomely during his first year, often to the cap. We respected the will of the pilots and sat quietly for another year, knowing all well he was not the man to lead this group. We gave you our quick and dirty assessment last year during the EVP election, but apparently our words fell on deaf ears. This current leadership is out of control, and doing just what Mike Cleary always lectured to us in the beginning. “Power is never given it is always taken.” He is attempting to do just that now, by ghostwriting for the candidates of his choice. You will notice that we sign what we write. Not so with Cleary.

Philadelphia pilots, this election for BPR Vice Chairman has become a skirmish in a much greater debate about the course of our union. If you want pair of Presidential “rubber stamps” then vote for Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer. They are Cleary cronies, plain and simple. If you want independent and hard working representation then vote for Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan. They are not in anyone’s pocket, ours or otherwise, and they will not toe the company line or an un-democratic union line if the current leadership attempts it.



Sincerely,



Steve Bradford and Mark King
 
Dude...you think it's bad now wait 2 years OMG

NICDOA
NPJB


I was thinking the same thing. If prechill is upset now, she will be screaming bloody murder in 2 years. In 5 years (absent a merger or a contract) even a 2011 New Hire will have a shot at an Airbus Captain slot. At least she has the balls to admit that she and the west want the East attrition for themselves.
 
Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.
Hello, I think some retired since 2005 due to age 60 still being a factor.....................
 
What part don't you get JETZ we could greet the West guys with open arms and flowers and NIC doesn't mean a damn thing
until it is part of a CBA. This foamimg at the mouth to get NIC tells us all we need to know.

NICDOA
NPJB
I was trying to simplify the perspectives of the other posters to Pi Brat, in an effort to help end the rather lengthy disagreement between them. What part of that is "foaming at the mouth?"... "dude?" I didn't even state an opinion on the matter.

You really are an angry "dude," completely spring loaded to pounce on anyone that even utters the word Nic, without even trying to comprehend what they are trying to say.

Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic!
NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC!
NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU!!!

There. Now after you stop hyperventilating, realize that I agree with you in that nothing means anything until a ratified contract emerges. IMO (and that of many outside of USAPA) it will eventually include the Nic. But not you, me, nor anyone else on this forum or else where will determine it. It will either be resolved by the courts, or alternately when the LOA 93 grievance is lost and a majority of east and west pilots give USAPA the boot and decide enough is enough. That's not salivating. It's just a desire to see justice and the rule of law prevail.

Now go have a cold one and relax a bit. :rolleyes:
 
Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.

The reason why Monda has about 600-700 pilots below him is due to recalling pilots prior the age 65 change and due to pilots going out on long term disability. Plus many recalled pilots are still on miltary orders after taking a recall.

While St. Nic was trying to put together the ALPA SLI, USAIR was losing around 200-300 pilots a year prior to age 65 change. Those positions had to be filled by the pilots now below Monda. The snapshot was taken two years before the St. Nic award and during this time recalled pilots were filling the vacancies prior to the age change. When age 65 hit 3 years ago the movement went down to around 50 a year. There are less positions now then there was in 2005.

It is amazing how dense some Westies are in not following this logic. It is exactly the reason why the Nic was so flawed and shows why the West is so desperate in taking those vacancies created on the East.

.Once again. There has been no growth on the East side. Just planes being replaced. Much domestic flying went to the West and the East used those spots lost to add some international. Trying to say the east has grown is really low and shows how blinded they are by greed.
 
Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.


The East pilot group had roughly 500 people retire from May 2005 till age 65 change in December 2007. An additional 40 took an early out payout in 2010 and along the way there have been another 250 or so go out on medical disability, resign, or retire early all the while the East has fewer active bid pilot positions today than 2005. Any upward movement has been despite the shrinkage in bid positions and fleet reduction from 270 aircraft to 202 and the productivity gain in consolidating from 6 crew bases to 3 crew bases.

The reason? Attrition and it does have significant value as is becoming painfully apparent to the West.
 
Hello, I think some retired since 2005 due to age 60 still being a factor.....................
I never said they didn't. You guys just can't help but act like attack dogs. I didn't think you retire the 600 number that has been brought up by others. Maybe you did. There could be other factors, as BB brought up. And I'm not implying that the 600 number the west claims is growth is even accurate.

As I stated before, I am not stating an opinion on the subject. I was trying to interject a simplified explanation to Pi Brat of where it appears to me that the 2 sides of that debate are misunderstanding each other... ie. the definition of "active" and "growth."
 
I never said they didn't. You guys just can't help but act like attack dogs. I didn't think you retire the 600 number that has been brought up by others. Maybe you did. There could be other factors, as BB brought up. And I'm not implying that the 600 number the west claims is growth is even accurate.

As I stated before, I am not stating an opinion on the subject. I was trying to interject a simplified explanation to Pi Brat of where it appears to me that the 2 sides of that debate are misunderstanding each other... ie. the definition of "active" and "growth."

Well.....since you have been soooooooo objective up until now????...and tell us again
please why you care??

NICDOA
NPJB
 
The reason why Monda has about 600-700 pilots below him is due to recalling pilots prior the age 65 change and due to pilots going out on long term disability. Plus many recalled pilots are still on miltary orders after taking a recall.

While St. Nic was trying to put together the ALPA SLI, USAIR was losing around 200-300 pilots a year prior to age 65 change. Those positions had to be filled by the pilots now below Monda. The snapshot was taken two years before the St. Nic award and during this time recalled pilots were filling the vacancies prior to the age change. When age 65 hit 3 years ago the movement went down to around 50 a year. There are less positions now then there was in 2005.

It is amazing how dense some Westies are in not following this logic. It is exactly the reason why the Nic was so flawed and shows why the West is so desperate in taking those vacancies created on the East.

.Once again. There has been no growth on the East side. Just planes being replaced. Much domestic flying went to the West and the East used those spots lost to add some international. Trying to say the east has grown is really low and shows how blinded they are by greed.

All east was recalled prior to the Nic decision. Pilots subsequently have been hired off the street on the east and the west - although the west ones are furloughed. Some of this is the result of attrition but, Jetz hits it on the head with increased international flying, additional widebodies and 190's all of which went to the east.

The west is not "thick" because we don't buy into your flawed logic.

There HAS seen growth on the east side, attributed to my above comments. No greed, just the facts.

The replacement of an A320 or 737 with a 330 or 767 will create pilot positions regardless of how desperately you wish to convince me otherwise.

The addition of 15 e190's that the east did not previously have and which are NOT replacing mainline aircraft will create pilot positions regardless of how desperately you wish to convince the world of west greed.

Try pulling your head out of your a$$ and being honest with yourself.
 
There has been a loss and of jobs and stagnation on the East since the merger, 200 actual positions, more if you consider that the 150 E190 positions were replacement for higher paying group II jobs. The West has had reduction and stagnation as well and it had nothing to do with USAPA as it did the run up in fuel costs, followed by the financial meltdown and dubious decisions on fuel hedging and investment securities.

The only reason the reduction and stagnation has affected the West more is they lacked the attrition contained withing the East seniority list. In fact if it weren't for East routes that can support $100 barrel of oil and the 24% of West required block hours being flown on said routes, the reduction and stagnation on the west would have been deeper.

The West frustration lays in the fact that Monda and many other East pilots are advancing from attrition and will continue to do so at a generous clip despite the RIF of the last 6 years because of attrition the West claims has limited or no value. Monda will likely be mid range block holding Group 1 FO, or a very senior Group 2 FO this time next year, and be a Captain if he wants within a couple years of Age 65 retirements commencing.
 
There has been a loss and of jobs and stagnation on the East since the merger, 200 actual positions, more if you consider that the 150 E190 positions were replacement for higher paying group II jobs. The West has had reduction and stagnation as well and it had nothing to do with USAPA as it did the run up in fuel costs, followed by the financial meltdown and dubious decisions on fuel hedging and investment securities.

The only reason the reduction and stagnation has affected the West more is they lacked the attrition contained withing the East seniority list. In fact if it weren't for East routes that can support $100 barrel of oil and the 24% of West required block hours being flown on said routes, the reduction and stagnation on the west would have been deeper.

The West frustration lays in the fact that Monda and many other East pilots are advancing from attrition and will continue to do so at a generous clip despite the RIF of the last 6 years because of attrition the West claims has limited or no value. Monda will likely be mid range block holding Group 1 FO, or a very senior Group 2 FO this time next year, and be a Captain if he wants within a couple years of Age 65 retirements commencing.


To G.G and all the others that contributed to this debate,

Out in PHX the sky is not blue and you will not convince certain west pilots it is! It's all been laid out, with the bid summaries showing pretty clearly what has happened, to those that can accept the truth.

This has been a little bit of a social experiment for me. The people that I was testing reacted exactly as I thought they would. It's kind of nice to confirm my thoughts, but a little disturbing to think we have to deal with some of them in the future. Hopefully they will stick to line flying and can pull that off a little bit better than following facts and answering simple questions.

Test out. B)
 
Pi, I've been casually skimming this discussion since it involves too many specific east & west variables that I have no access to. However it seems to me like the whole topic hinges on what a person considers active, and also what one considers growth. Your point that you are within a few hulls of fleet minimums, and that the total number of active pilots has not changed much is one way to look at it and say there has been no growth. I think the west looks at more from the point of recalling pilots from furlough and hiring new ones, all of which can not be accounted for by early retirements and medicals. So from that perspective, the jobs come from somewhere, be it more international flying or 190's or something else. If the junior most east pilot in 2005 now has several hundred pilots below him, and no one retired due to age 65, the result is the same. There has been upward movement since the PID that probably would not have been there absent the merger. The west has furloughed pilots while the east does not, and that would not be the case using the Nic award.

Nope, she's just wrong.
 
I was trying to simplify the perspectives of the other posters to Pi Brat, in an effort to help end the rather lengthy disagreement between them. What part of that is "foaming at the mouth?"... "dude?" I didn't even state an opinion on the matter.

You really are an angry "dude," completely spring loaded to pounce on anyone that even utters the word Nic, without even trying to comprehend what they are trying to say.

Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic, Nic!
NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC, NIC!
NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU, NICOLAU!!!

There. Now after you stop hyperventilating, realize that I agree with you in that nothing means anything until a ratified contract emerges. IMO (and that of many outside of USAPA) it will eventually include the Nic. But not you, me, nor anyone else on this forum or else where will determine it. It will either be resolved by the courts, or alternately when the LOA 93 grievance is lost and a majority of east and west pilots give USAPA the boot and decide enough is enough. That's not salivating. It's just a desire to see justice and the rule of law prevail.

Now go have a cold one and relax a bit. :rolleyes:

Yea dude....totally relaxed here .....just watching your posts
your credibility is gone you suggest that the arb will protect the
furloughed and split the growth in your merger......news flash......
NIC did neither.......what he did do was place a person with 5 months ahead of
a guy with 18 NEVER FURLOUGHED years who had paid 20Gs in dues AT LEAST.

NICDOA
NPJB
 
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