US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The "Summary Domicile Variance" is the headcount except it's broken down by base, so the two headcounts would represent line jobs on the respective bids. It is not the same as "Active" pilots, which would include check airmen, management pilots, etc in both cases. So there was indeed a reduction in headcount from May 05 to the last bid which isn't effective till later this year. However, someone posted a part of the Nic that sounds like he used the headcount (which he called "active") after the 25 planes left in late 2005/early 2006 - we discussed that before. That would change the East headcount to ~2400, so indeed that's an increase from the "pre-merger" headcount. Remember also that in 2007 Nic was working with the original certified lists, first taking out non-flying pilots. So his "active" number could have been lower. And of course Nic wasn't looking at anything from 2011 since it didn't exist then. So basically it comes down to making sure you're comparing apples to apples. You can't compare the Nic headcount to any other headcount, seniority list, or whatever.

Also, as I've said several times, if you can explain how East gained 7 A332's, 3 757's, and 25 E190's after reaching the lowest bid headcount, none of which were in the fleet plan in the TA, recalled all the furloughed that wanted to return including the CEL pilots at MDA plus hired what, 100-200-300 new hires while shrinking the headcount, I'd love to hear it. Besides, it's going to be the Nic list or the USAPA list so why does it matter what the numbers were on this or that date?

Jim

Jim,

Here is a quote from post #6003 from preshill that started all of this:

"Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!


I have approached preshill from every angle to either figure out what in the hell she(I guess it's a she, someone said it was) is talking about, or to show her she is wrong. SHE picked the date May 2005, so we are not talking about what Nic used. I pulled Nic's numbers to show her that the is no way in hell her 2200 active pilots at US in May '05 is correct, not matter what she is looking at.

Thanks for the admission that the east is smaller now than on May 19, 2005. Preshill, will you admit you are XXXXXX up now that your messiah has said so?

 

[Pi brat]

Also, as I've said several times, if you can explain how East gained 7 A332's, 3 757's, and 25 E190's after reaching the lowest bid headcount, none of which were in the fleet plan in the TA, recalled all the furloughed that wanted to return including the CEL pilots at MDA plus hired what, 100-200-300 new hires while shrinking the headcount, I'd love to hear it. Besides, it's going to be the Nic list or the USAPA list so why does it matter what the numbers were on this or that date?

Jim

Despite all that you list, the east is within a couple of it's min fleet size. It has returned more hulls(excluding the E190s which don't count, for good reason) than it has received. Simple, huh? And, the placement of the 757s and E190s was done by an agreed upon process, wasn't it? We wouldn't want to go against that, would we?

 

[Pi brat]

Jim,

One last question and I only ask because the west holds you in such high esteem. In post #7928 preshill said:

"Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots."

From your memory, your notes, you files, whatever, can you come up with any possible definition of "active" that would make this a true statement?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Despite all that you list, the east is within a couple of it's min fleet size. It has returned more hulls(excluding the E190s which don't count, for good reason) than it has received. Simple, huh?

But the 190's are being flown by East pilots, correct? So the total number of airplanes that East is flying is well above the TA min fleet limit. The E-190's also require a training department. According to the latest bid, that's ~170 line pilots (11 pilots/plane)plus training dept/supervisory.

Then there's the A332's, which have higher staffing (22.35 pilots/plane) - that's ~157 line pilots plus the usual training/supervisory.

The 3 757's have higher staffing now that they're flying TA (~21 pilots per plane) vs when they weren't - ~10pilots/plane. So ~70 pilots for the 3 plus the difference in staffing for the others or another 150 = ~220 pilots.

The E190's weren't on the property in 2005, so that's 156 line pilots plus the usual non-line actives.

All told, over 500 pilots just to fly the post--merger arrivals, plus the higher staffing on the existing 757's plus the usual training/supervisory pilots attributable to pthe post-merger arrivals. That's enough pilots to staff ~50 domestic airplanes instead of the 25 arrivals post-merger.

So just saying "we lost more planes than we received" ignores getting 10 planes (A332/757) with higher staffing requirements than anything that left.

Since Nic data originated with the certified list and he obviously had nothing from 2011 to use and appears to have used the "active" terminology for line pilots, it's impossible to use the Nic list as a comparison number. A full seniority list showing exact status would be the ideal for comparison because you could correct it for departures/returns (non-active pilots) but I don't have that for after 2008. The permanent bid seniority list would have all that but I don't have that for anything after 2007. So I keep coming back to the same question and don't have an answer - how do you recall all the furloughed pilots and hire however many on top of that while shrinking? Part (or maybe all) of it is due to people going on LTD and retirements (both age 60 and early). Maybe pre was just looking at the last active pilot thinking that everyone above that was active. I don't know why your and his numbers disagree, but so far they do. Without the same list for the two (or three) time periods I have no concrete answer to give you.

As for the definition of active and how it results in 2200 active pilots, I don't know. Maybe that's what the East certified list shows - as I've said, from a part of the award that someone posted earlier it appears that Nic used "active" to mean what we've been calling head count but I don't have a copy of the certified list to look at. But comparing the certified list to a company list leaves room for errors.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

Jim,

One last question and I only ask because the west holds you in such high esteem. In post #7928 preshill said:

"Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots."

From your memory, your notes, you files, whatever, can you come up with any possible definition of "active" that would make this a true statement?

If you can count, you can figure this out for yourself. Take the May 2005 seniority list, look at Monda's name and number and then subtract "one" for each name above it that has either "Medical" "LOA" "Military" or "retired" next to it. You see, the meaning of these labels do not change over time, people may come and go off of the status but the meaning does not change.
Then look at the May 2011 list and do the same thing- you won't like what count because you have more than 500 new names on the east list who do not have "Medical" "LOA" "Military" or "retired" next to them. About 150 pilots retired from May 2005 until December 2007.

Here is a bonus question, if your fleet hasn't changed and you have only had 150 pilots retire since the merger how can Monda have 600 pilots below him?

 

[CactusPilot1]

You might be right there. The next few crew news sessions might be interesting viewing.

I hope there are a few empty seats at the next crew news. The FA's need all the support they can get with their picket. I'm not all that interested in what Parker or Kirby has to say when they tell you guys one thing and us another.

At least the FA'S would appreciate our efforts.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Could you please expand on your numbers. How is it a 45% raise from F/O to Captain?

In looking at the East attrition numbers on the USAPA website, you might find that the attrition will not exactly be "turbo growth". But perhaps you will be one of the early benefactors, assuming USAirways remains a going concern and defacto seperate ops.

85000(top of scale FO) to 125000(top of scale CO) is a 47% raise.

 

[crazystnic]

85000(top of scale FO) to 125000(top of scale CO) is a 47% raise.

**************************
thanks George, I hadn't a chance to respond yet..
I will make CPT much quicker without the NIC. Probably in 4 years... (mapybe sooner depending on early retirments/ medicals.
pay will go from 85 to 125.

A 40,000 dollar raise.

 

[cactusboy53]

...."Who exactly would come to the table representing the West?" How about the PHX reps, oh I forgot, that's the guys who refuse to show up at the contract mediation table.

Seajay;

Once USAPA successfully ousted ALPA, there was no "west side". We are one airline and one pilot group. No dual ratification, just separate operations until such time that a joint contract is voted on.

I can tell you that there is no group, committee, sect, plethora or unit of former AWA pilots that have the right or authority to negotiate away from the legal & rightful seniority list that was derived from a final and binding arbitration. The first person that stands up and says "Oh gosh! We're in a heap of trouble. I'll help my group out by finding a compromise between the Nicolau award and DOH." sets himself / herself up for huge litigation trouble.

With regard to the the PHX reps, they are elected officials that conduct USAPA business for the PHX base (except that Dictator Cleary has recently made up rules that exclude 2 representatives from section 19 participation....not addressed in the CBL's, constitution or bylaws......just an order from the bench of the supreme high commander) only.

Regarding the only west pilot on the NAC, he had participated faithfully until recently. He saw that the other three NAC members were in way over their heads (yes, these would be the three AAA pilots that were FURLOUGHED at the time of the merger announcement). As such the west NAC member asked for one more west NAC member that was EXPERIENCED in contract negotiations. He was flatly refused by.......WAIT FOR IT.......His royal hiney-ness & supreme commander Cleary. Cleary had called the west NAC member on his ultimatum, and said NAC member had no choice but to resign as promised. Don't worry though.......The supreme commander & very own Napoleon Dynamite said that USAPA he do it without west participation.

The leadership that we have seen from the throne (seems more like a high chair) in CLT seems to be short sighted and comes up short. Little can be done without drastic changes to the leadership and constitution. Just a wee bit of common sense here could go a very long way. I am just stumped as to the reason why more people don't see this. Until a small number of east join us to emasculate this current leadership and move on.....we will remain at an impasse.

 

[Pi brat]

If you can count, you can figure this out for yourself. Take the May 2005 seniority list, look at Monda's name and number and then subtract "one" for each name above it that has either "Medical" "LOA" "Military" or "retired" next to it. You see, the meaning of these labels do not change over time, people may come and go off of the status but the meaning does not change.
Then look at the May 2011 list and do the same thing- you won't like what count because you have more than 500 new names on the east list who do not have "Medical" "LOA" "Military" or "retired" next to them. About 150 pilots retired from May 2005 until December 2007.

Here is a bonus question, if your fleet hasn't changed and you have only had 150 pilots retire since the merger how can Monda have 600 pilots below him?

THE FLEET HAS CHANGED. Do you live under a rock? We've lost more than 50 hulls, while gaining around 25-30, with 15 of them being E190s, THAT DON'T COUNT. You always ignore that little tidbit. That was the AGREEMENT and who would fly them was settled by an agreed upon process, but now you complain about it. Sound familiar?

I have told you I do not have the list from 2005 and have invited you to post it, but you haven't. Did you read anything Jim posted? Did you get what he said about the bids? I don't know what you are doing, but the way you are doing it and the implications are wrong. Yesterday you said the east had 2200 active pilots in May 2005. What did you mean by active, because there is no way that number is correct, unless you are counting pilots that only work on Mon-Fri.

May 2005 2782 positions(with no E190s)
Mar 2011 2592 positions(with 15 low paying E190s)
minus 190 line jobs, and many of the line jobs left are under paid! How many furloughed west pilots were interested in the E190 right seat?

Maybe the extra supervisor, medicals, etc. fill the gaps, but I don't think there is that much difference. Bottom line-the east has not GROWN.

You might be able to add, but the numbers don't support some of the conclusions you come to. If you could read, and had the integrity to admit it, you would find you are wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

But the 190's are being flown by East pilots, correct? So the total number of airplanes that East is flying is well above the TA min fleet limit. The E-190's also require a training department. According to the latest bid, that's ~170 line pilots (11 pilots/plane)plus training dept/supervisory.

Then there's the A332's, which have higher staffing (22.35 pilots/plane) - that's ~157 line pilots plus the usual training/supervisory.

The 3 757's have higher staffing now that they're flying TA (~21 pilots per plane) vs when they weren't - ~10pilots/plane. So ~70 pilots for the 3 plus the difference in staffing for the others or another 150 = ~220 pilots.

The E190's weren't on the property in 2005, so that's 156 line pilots plus the usual non-line actives.

All told, over 500 pilots just to fly the post--merger arrivals, plus the higher staffing on the existing 757's plus the usual training/supervisory pilots attributable to pthe post-merger arrivals. That's enough pilots to staff ~50 domestic airplanes instead of the 25 arrivals post-merger.

So just saying "we lost more planes than we received" ignores getting 10 planes (A332/757) with higher staffing requirements than anything that left.

Since Nic data originated with the certified list and he obviously had nothing from 2011 to use and appears to have used the "active" terminology for line pilots, it's impossible to use the Nic list as a comparison number. A full seniority list showing exact status would be the ideal for comparison because you could correct it for departures/returns (non-active pilots) but I don't have that for after 2008. The permanent bid seniority list would have all that but I don't have that for anything after 2007. So I keep coming back to the same question and don't have an answer - how do you recall all the furloughed pilots and hire however many on top of that while shrinking? Part (or maybe all) of it is due to people going on LTD and retirements (both age 60 and early). Maybe pre was just looking at the last active pilot thinking that everyone above that was active. I don't know why your and his numbers disagree, but so far they do. Without the same list for the two (or three) time periods I have no concrete answer to give you.

As for the definition of active and how it results in 2200 active pilots, I don't know. Maybe that's what the East certified list shows - as I've said, from a part of the award that someone posted earlier it appears that Nic used "active" to mean what we've been calling head count but I don't have a copy of the certified list to look at. But comparing the certified list to a company list leaves room for errors.

Jim

You just can't do it, can you? You go around and around to try and not make a follower look bad.

I asked your opinion. By any logical definition can you come up with only 2200 active pilots at US Airways on May 2005? You said the domicile summary was flying jobs and bid 05-03 shows 2782. A long way from 2200, by any definition, and today there are 2582 line positions with 150 of those being half paid E190s. I'll ask again, yes or no, can you come up with any logical definition that preshill can use to come up with that we only had 2200 active pilots on May 19 2005?

I agree with most of your numbers on the staffing but you say I ignore the higher staffing of the A330/757s. I don't, but the 84 or so extra pilots on those does not make up for the total pilots that would be flying on the returned 737,320 and 757s. When you are doing the math, the A330s and TA 757 only add around 7 extra pilots per A/C more than a domestic one they replaced would take, right? So, 12 TA A/C replacing 12 domestic whatever would require only 84 more pilots, not the hundreds you said. And the E190s DON'T COUNT! If it's all about keeping your agreements, why do you ignore that fact? They were sold as growth aircraft and they became lower paid 737/320 replacements. One or two hulls and the E190s are the only thing above the agreed upon min fleet on the east, so whatever it takes to run them, it takes, but that number is smaller than the number it took to operate the fleet in May 2005.

I found the Kagel award and list last night. Interesting reading.

You

 

[psw737]

THE FLEET HAS CHANGED. Do you live under a rock. We've lost around 50 hulls, while gaining around 25-30.

I have told you I do not have the list from 2005 and have invited you to post it, but you haven't. Did you read anything Jim posted? Did you get what he said about the bids? I don't know what you are doing, but the way you are doing it and the implications are wrong. Yesterday you said the east had 2200 active pilots in May 2005. What did you mean by active, because there is no way that number is correct, unless you are counting pilots that only work on Mon-Fri.

May 2005 2782 positions(with no E190s)
Mar 2011 2592 positions(with 15 low paying E190s)
-190 line jobs

Maybe the extra supervisor, medicals, etc. fill the gaps, but I don't think there is that much difference. Bottom line-the east has not GROWN.

I agree the east hasn't grown since 2005. Rather than looking at # of active pilots why is it that fleet size in 2005 vs 2011 isn't looked at? Also, in addition to having less pilots and airframes there have been major pilot and aircraft productivity changes over the past few years. The aircraft are flying more hours per day than they used to and we are all flying more every month than we used to. This all requires less pilots than we used to have. Just saying??? Have to look at the whole picture, if we all went back to the days of only fllying 76 hours there would be a hell of alot more pilots on the property.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Cleary's Private Meeting with the Teamsters Leaves Questions Among the Pilots Dear Subscriber,

Update for February 15, 2011

Quick Fact #134: Cleary's Private Meeting with the Teamsters Leaves Questions Among the Pilots.

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[Pi brat]

I agree the east hasn't grown since 2005. Rather than looking at # of active pilots why is it that fleet size in 2005 vs 2011 isn't looked at? Also, in addition to having less pilots and airframes there have been major pilot and aircraft productivity changes over the past few years. The aircraft are flying more hours per day than they used to and we are all flying more every month than we used to. This all requires less pilots than we used to have. Just saying??? Have to look at the whole picture, if we all went back to the days of only fllying 76 hours there would be a hell of alot more pilots on the property.

Because she does not have the INTEGRITY to admit she was wrong. She keeps moving the shells, but the pea is nowhere to be found, and Jim has to help in what he feels is the battle against DOH. It really stung him about 20 years ago.

I don't know about the staffing. We might actually be less efficient now than 2005. We we really understaffed then, some reserves were hitting their rolling average, and the cap was always at 95. But you are right, you have to look at everything.

 

[N924PS]

**************************
thanks George, I hadn't a chance to respond yet..
I will make CPT much quicker without the NIC. Probably in 4 years... (mapybe sooner depending on early retirments/ medicals.
pay will go from 85 to 125.

A 40,000 dollar raise.

I hope you won't be terribly disappointed when your 4 year plan does not come to fruition.

I still don't believe $eham, USAPA(or even the Teamsters) will deliver a DOH list. Four years from now you willl still be making $85 in the right seat while a few people will upgrade due to East attrition.

Hopefully the legal resolution to this tragedy will arrive sooner than later. One can only hope.