US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Agreed. Prior to the merger, our shrinkage either kept up with or out ran our attrition. After the merger our attrition out ran our shrinkage and finally there was upward movement. It is why, that despite losing hulls, I am now a capt. while I was a little bus F/O on May 19 2005. Not growth. It's what is so frustrating with the Nic, after waiting all those years, it is here, yet he decided to give it to another group.

Thanks PI. I have been trying to educate the mob that all of managements tricks would eventually run out and recalls would happen and move ups would take place. For everone's sake I am glad they changed the age 60 rule but IF THEY HAD NOT....600 retirements and classes of 20-30 each month out East just since the NIC. And the Westies would have to peel themselves off of the ceiling each morning. NIC threw the baby out with the bathwater.

NICDOA
NPJB
 
I agree and would add #3-can a result of final and binding arbitration never be amended? I don't know.

Obviously, if there fraud, etc it can be redone. But I believe that the statute of limitations for that is 6 months. Also any questions about how to interpret any part of the arbitrator's ruling if the MC's can't work it out between them - I think that there were 5-6 issues like that that ended up back in the arbitrator's lap for the PI/US integration.

Now, can you answer the other question or is it impossible for you to comment when it would show a westie is wrong?

For someone with such a thin skin for anything you consider slights, condescending attitudes, etc you don't mind tossing it out there do you?

I think we may have gone around this tree before. I asked what question and you replied with basically "never mind". So what other question specifically?

Jim
 
Obviously, if there fraud, etc it can be redone. But I believe that the statute of limitations for that is 6 months. Also any questions about how to interpret any part of the arbitrator's ruling if the MC's can't work it out between them - I think that there were 5-6 issues like that that ended up back in the arbitrator's lap for the PI/US integration.
The six month limitation regarding seniority list integration was addressed in the Empire Pilots vs alpa. The court said it was possible to use events outside of the limitation.

""Accordingly, we hold that the six-month statute of limitations governing duty of fair representation claims under the Railway Labor Act does not bar the Empire pilots from using events from the 1985 formation of the Piedmont-Empire integrated seniority list to help prove that the refusal in November 1987 to renegotiate the list breached the duty of fair representation.""

Empire Pilots vs alpa
 
For someone with such a thin skin for anything you consider slights, condescending attitudes, etc you don't mind tossing it out there do you?

I think we may have gone around this tree before. I asked what question and you replied with basically "never mind". So what other question specifically?

Jim

This if getting funny. Please tell me you are just messing with me, please. Here ya go, from #7930:

What? Do you not remember the conversation on whether the east had "grown" as prechil asserted? You said you were transferring files from an old computer.

Bid 05-03, under Summary Domicile Variance, shows 2782 positions. From your above post it sounds like that is actual flying jobs, correct? Bid 11-01 shows a number of 2592 for the same thing. Does that look like growth to you? Do your recall us being understaffed in the '05 time frame? With this info., is there any possible way that pre's claim, that the east had 2200 active pilots on May 19 2005, can be true?
 
I even looked at your official seniority list- I guess it wasn't too official is what you are insinuating.



Post it. I posted the bids form the May 2005 time frame vs. now and it shows what you are saying is b.s. If you are using some outer space definition of "growth", please say so. Or better yet, just admit that you are wrong.
 
Glad you guys are having fun going round and round.

I'm done with the merry go round...

I'll just repeat how most East pilots are thinking.

we will live under LOA 93 and get our 45% raises off of upgrades..

Remember NIC is nothing until ratified.

good day.
 
Obviously, if there fraud, etc it can be redone. But I believe that the statute of limitations for that is 6 months. Also any questions about how to interpret any part of the arbitrator's ruling if the MC's can't work it out between them - I think that there were 5-6 issues like that that ended up back in the arbitrator's lap for the PI/US integration.
Jim

I will be honest with you here, at times I'm not sure what USAPA is thinking, but I don't believe they are raising the above issues. I think they are saying is that the Nic award, whatever he was thinking, can be made irrelevant. Can it be? I have no idea. I know arbitrated lists have been changed, the Kagel was with other mergers, and USAPA points to Rakestraw, but those had very specific issues. So, in the end a court, with none of us on it, will decide.
 
Glad you guys are having fun going round and round.

I'm done with the merry go round...

I'll just repeat how most East pilots are thinking.

we will live under LOA 93 and get our 45% raises off of upgrades..

Remember NIC is nothing until ratified.

good day.

Enjoy your time off the Merry Go-round. We all need a break sometimes. I do agree with the ratification part, some tend to forget about that.
 
I'm sure you life was better then, just as mine was before 1989. The reality is the same for both of us though, that we don't know what the future would have brought absent the respective mergers. I think our chances in '89 were better than yours in 2005. If you guys would take the blinders off you would see that the short period of relative glory AWA had was about over, and the alternative to a merger(at least stand alone) would have been worse than the merger with US has been.

I agree with you post with the exception of the "blinders" comment. The reality of what we are dealing with today is a dysfunctional union and a CEO that has no leadership ability. The company may very well be pushed off the fence by Judge Silver.

We'll see.
 
we will live under LOA 93 and get our 45% raises off of upgrades..


Could you please expand on your numbers. How is it a 45% raise from F/O to Captain?

In looking at the East attrition numbers on the USAPA website, you might find that the attrition will not exactly be "turbo growth". But perhaps you will be one of the early benefactors, assuming USAirways remains a going concern and defacto seperate ops.
 
This if getting funny. Please tell me you are just messing with me, please. Here ya go, from #7930:

What? Do you not remember the conversation on whether the east had "grown" as prechil asserted? You said you were transferring files from an old computer.

Bid 05-03, under Summary Domicile Variance, shows 2782 positions. From your above post it sounds like that is actual flying jobs, correct? Bid 11-01 shows a number of 2592 for the same thing. Does that look like growth to you? Do your recall us being understaffed in the '05 time frame? With this info., is there any possible way that pre's claim, that the east had 2200 active pilots on May 19 2005, can be true?
The "Summary Domicile Variance" is the headcount except it's broken down by base, so the two headcounts would represent line jobs on the respective bids. It is not the same as "Active" pilots, which would include check airmen, management pilots, etc in both cases. So there was indeed a reduction in headcount from May 05 to the last bid which isn't effective till later this year. However, someone posted a part of the Nic that sounds like he used the headcount (which he called "active") after the 25 planes left in late 2005/early 2006 - we discussed that before. That would change the East headcount to ~2400, so indeed that's an increase from the "pre-merger" headcount. Remember also that in 2007 Nic was working with the original certified lists, first taking out non-flying pilots. So his "active" number could have been lower. And of course Nic wasn't looking at anything from 2011 since it didn't exist then. So basically it comes down to making sure you're comparing apples to apples. You can't compare the Nic headcount to any other headcount, seniority list, or whatever.

Also, as I've said several times, if you can explain how East gained 7 A332's, 3 757's, and 25 E190's after reaching the lowest bid headcount, none of which were in the fleet plan in the TA, recalled all the furloughed that wanted to return including the CEL pilots at MDA plus hired what, 100-200-300 new hires while shrinking the headcount, I'd love to hear it. Besides, it's going to be the Nic list or the USAPA list so why does it matter what the numbers were on this or that date?

Jim
 
The C&R's could be changed to keep the seniority lists for former East and West pilots separate for purposes of any future furlough. Shrink the East and after you work through the new hires, you go to the former East list and go from there. Same for West shrinkage.

Not workable. Decades of precedent means you can't furlough on anything other than reverse-seniority. The company could easily use this as a whipsaw.

"Who exactly would come to the table representing the West?" How about the PHX reps, oh I forgot, that's the guys who refuse to show up at the contract mediation table.

Seriously? Have you even read USAPA's C&BL's? There is no West! One USAPA domicile cannot negotiate against the others. C'mon, use your head. I respect that you're at least trying to find a solution but you can't ignore reality in the process.
 
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