US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

I agree 100% with your entire post with the exception of the highlighted part above.

It was a true statement not so long ago. But IMO, USAPA no longer has majority support. Their support is waning as evidenced by some of the posters here as well as the internal fist fights and political maneuvering. Their train wreck is being driven by the leadership and the vocal minority. As soon as the LOA 93 grievance is settled against the east, things will unravel further and a representational election is most certain. The implosion is unfolding before our eyes. Expect the rhetoric of the usual suspects on this forum to increase and spin out of control as the end approaches.

Yes,

Hey, we're on a roll! Good for you. Thanks again for your simple and honest response.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Was being arrogant and condescending a requirement for hiring at AWA?

I've read it many time, forgot that it was in there. I will take a look. Thanks.

My apologies. I wasn't trying to be condescending but it was rather a failed attempt at humor. I was pretty certain you read it in the past, but it doesn't seem that the facts, figures, and reasoning used by the Arbitration Board have made much of an impact on east thinking. If only the east could appreciate that the Award took great care to craft a fair and equitable merged list, then so much money and time wouldn't have been lost in fighting against it.

 

[fodase]

The East at work.

BPR Telephonic Meeting Recap


The Board of Pilot Representatives conducted a telephonic meeting on Monday, February 14th. In addition to the Officer reports, the scheduled agenda items included:

* Safety Committee Update regarding the Safety Culture
* Survey Board Approval of Real Estate Lease

President Cleary called the meeting to order about 1408 ET.
A motion was raised to adjust the order of the agenda, placing the approval of the office lease ahead of the Safety Committee update regarding the Safety Culture survey. This motion was passed by the Board.
A motion was then raised directing the President to sign or delegate signing of the office lease. Extensive discussion followed regarding the delegation of signing, along with a proffered amendment to the motion adding an inspection requirement to the lease. This amendment failed. The original motion directing signing, including an amendment clarifying the location and date, was passed.
Following the passing of the signing resolution, President Cleary initiated a discussion regarding clarification of the meaning of Article 1, Section 2 of the USAPA Constitution, which discusses the majority vote required to move the office location. A motion to confirm the intent and meaning of this Article failed.
At this point the agenda item dealing with the office lease was completed and discussion moved to the next agenda item on Safety Culture. The Safety Committee members had by this time left the call, so the second agenda item could not be addressed.
A motion was then raised at the request of the Ballot Certification Committee to waive the provisions of the UOM (which restricts the number of agenda items for telephonic meetings) to allow for an additional agenda item to alter certain UOM language pertaining to elections. The motion to waive the provisions of the UOM to add the additional agenda item failed.
In his Officer report to the Board, Secretary-Treasurer Rob Streble requested that the Board approve new membership applications, which the Board did unanimously.
The meeting was adjourned at approximately 1545 ET.

USAPA Communications
__________________

 

[Pi brat]

Hey prechil,

I took Calloways advise and looked at the Nic award again. Here's what it says:

"As of the date of the merger" US had 5098 pilots on the seniority list with 1691 furloughed, leaving 3407. AWA had 1894. US had 270 aircraft, AWA 144. Even not taking into account a great number of inactive pilots on the east, that leaves 12.61 pilots per aircraft on the US side and 13.15 pilots per aircraft on the AWA side. On pages 6 and 7 of the award St. Nic said that by January 2007 US was down to 226 aircraft and 3005 ACTIVE pilots. So oh wise one, how did the east go from 2200 ACTIVE pilots on May 19 2005 to 3005 ACTIVE on Jan 1 2007 while losing 44 aircraft?

 

[Pi brat]

He split it with roughly 2/3 of total attrition going to the East. As in your case, it was attrition in the captain ranks that allowed you to make captain and the captain attrition is about 2/3 from the East also.

As I've said before, the East MC said that they could likely protect the attritiion and widebodies, but under threat of recall they were forced to try for nothing less than DOH.

Jim

Ok, and an answer for the other question?

 

[Pi brat]

My apologies. I wasn't trying to be condescending but it was rather a failed attempt at humor. I was pretty certain you read it in the past, but it doesn't seem that the facts, figures, and reasoning used by the Arbitration Board have made much of an impact on east thinking. If only the east could appreciate that the Award took great care to craft a fair and equitable merged list, then so much money and time wouldn't have been lost in fighting against it.

Thanks, apology accepted, I was a little too sensitive after preshillls "Einstein" comment.

I think most east pilots have read and considered the Nic, but still disagree with his assumptions. Some west pilots disagree with some of them too. It doesn't really matter what any of us think, it is what it is and a court will decide in the end "what final and binding means".

 

[BoeingBoy]

I doubt that the courts will turn "final and binding arbitration" on it's head - it's become too ingrained for solving disputes in this country. Look at your credit card agreement, insurance policies, mortgage, whatever and you'll probably find language that says disputes will be the subject of final and binding arbitration as a last resort.

The real question is whether 1- USAPA inherits the results of final and binding arbitration or not, and 2 - if USAPA doesn't inherit the Nic, does USAPA's proposed seniority list violate it's DFR responsibility?

Jim

 

[prechilill]

Hey prechil,

I took Calloways advise and looked at the Nic award again. Here's what it says:

"As of the date of the merger" US had 5098 pilots on the seniority list with 1691 furloughed, leaving 3407. AWA had 1894. US had 270 aircraft, AWA 144. Even not taking into account a great number of inactive pilots on the east, that leaves 12.61 pilots per aircraft on the US side and 13.15 pilots per aircraft on the AWA side. On pages 6 and 7 of the award St. Nic said that by January 2007 US was down to 226 aircraft and 3005 ACTIVE pilots. So oh wise one, how did the east go from 2200 ACTIVE pilots on May 19 2005 to 3005 ACTIVE on Jan 1 2007 while losing 44 aircraft?

I swear you have got to be the best dancer around- I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth?

 

[Reed Richards]

I swear you have got to be the best dancer around- I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth?

Chill, I have just been reading past most of this argument..but one thing I know..we have not had "only 2200" active pilots on our list since before the PSA merger. There are hundreds of management and check airman that might be missing from your 2200 number, and anything you got from Nic or resulting from ALPA accounting is questionable at best.

We have not been growing, in fact our bid before last was the first one to actually increase the pilot count since 911..and I don't mean increase to some previous level..simply the first one not to go down. That is my cursory observation, and I defer to those, BB included, that actaully track this stuff. But only 2200?..no way.

RR

 

[Metroyet]

anything you got from Nic or resulting from ALPA accounting is questionable at best.

RR

Here again, another complete myth...a fabrication of East memories....a figment of a martyred imagination.

 

[CallawayGolf]

There are hundreds of management and check airman that might be missing from your 2200 number, and anything you got from Nic or resulting from ALPA accounting is questionable at best.

RR

NIC used an east seniority list certified by the east MEC which was comprised of east pilots. So in that regard, I would agree... the east pilots' ability to construct and present a reliable list is questionable at best. Nevertheless, no one can blame the Arbitration Board for using a certified list provided by the east pilots themselves.

Note: I’m not concurring with or disputing the 2200 active pilot number; rather just affirming that based on past performance, the east certified list is indeed subject to much error and manipulation for nefarious gains given the chain of custody it went through.

 

[Pi brat]

I ask again, care to comment on how you can have ~2200 pilots on a seniority list in May 2005 and then have ~2600 pilots on a seniority list in 2011 and not call that growth?

Because we had many more than that on May 19, 2005! I even quoted your beloved Mr. Nicolau. Read. Think. You are wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

I doubt that the courts will turn "final and binding arbitration" on it's head - it's become too ingrained for solving disputes in this country. Look at your credit card agreement, insurance policies, mortgage, whatever and you'll probably find language that says disputes will be the subject of final and binding arbitration as a last resort.

The real question is whether 1- USAPA inherits the results of final and binding arbitration or not, and 2 - if USAPA doesn't inherit the Nic, does USAPA's proposed seniority list violate it's DFR responsibility?

Jim

I agree and would add #3-can a result of final and binding arbitration never be amended? I don't know.

Now, can you answer the other question or is it impossible for you to comment when it would show a westie is wrong?

 

[prechilill]

Because we had many more than that on May 19, 2005! I even quoted your beloved Mr. Nicolau. Read. Think. You are wrong.

I even looked at your official seniority list- I guess it wasn't too official is what you are insinuating.

 

[A320 Driver]

A "whopper"?

From the Nicolau Award:
"As previously stated, giving sole consideration to the date of hire and length of service would put the senior America West pilot some 900 to 1100 numbers down the combined list. US Airways proposed restrictions, both as to aircraft and length, would unduly deprive too many senior America West pilots of upgrade opportunities for too long a time, and would also put a number of active America West pilots below long-furloughed US Airways pilots who, until the merger, had little prospect of an early return."

Seems that the neutral arbitrator thought it was a fact rather than a fabrication. And he wasn't even taking future furloughs into consideration, only that AWA pilots would be moved down the seniority list; some even being displaced by long-furloughed US pilots which would violate the SLI and TA requirements. Care to revise your accusation?

Nope...don't think I will. And this has WHAT to do with displacements. Upgrades maybe.

Driver <_<