US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

the other group seeks to impose massive displacements to one group for the express gain of their own group.
it’s a difference of personal integrity and honor

Where I come from, we call that a "whopper". How does a statement like that meet the definition of personal integrity OR honor. You HAVE to know that can't be true even if USAPA got their DOH.

Driver <_<

 

[767jetz]

The C&R's could be changed to keep the seniority lists for former East and West pilots separate for purposes of any future furlough. Shrink the East and after you work through the new hires, you go to the former East list and go from there. Same for West shrinkage.

"Who exactly would come to the table representing the West?" How about the PHX reps, oh I forgot, that's the guys who refuse to show up at the contract mediation table.

seajay

It's not that simple. Once the seniority list is complete and ops specs are combined, crews will start flying with each other. That's one of the major synergies the company gets. No more dual scheduling. So in your scenario, east and west crews fly together, with the east having their DOH. But when furloughs happen you start taking people out of the system via the Nic list or "former east list" and they start coming out of the system in random places, creating huge retraining expenses for the company trying to back fill those vacancies left by furloughed pilots. furloughing from the bottom up still creates training expense but not to the same degree. And its an expense they could hardly afford since in a furlough scenario the company is trying to conserve cash.

There is also no way to tell where the "shrinkage" would have really come from absent the merger. The merger changes the business plan based on new metrics throughout the system. If traffic increases for example, for passengers wanting to go from PHL to Hawaii, does the company route them via CLT or PHX? This decision effects where flying would go. What about other routes that only had the feed to fill an RJ? Now the additional traffic of the combined airline makes that same route more effective with an A320. Did that feed come from the east or the west? The economy will also affect those decisions. Presumably an increase in business travel would benefit the east coast corridor and the shuttle, while an increase in leisure travel would benefit the west. UA always benefits to a larger degree than any other airline when business fares increase, while suffering more when the economy turns down. Stage length also increases CASM which is bad for the east unless fares are stable or increasing. All of these factors play into the decision of where to allocate assets, and it is constantly changing, often from one season to the next.

When you look at the macro-econmics, it is not as simple as saying shrink the east furlough the east... shrink the west furlough the west. Same goes for growth. Who created the growth? That's why growth needs to be shared equally, or at least by a ratio decided by the arbitrator. (ie: 2/3 of the upgrades go east)

Finally, C&R's often go away in mergers. So the theory floated around here of an impending future merger negates any of these DOH with C&R ideas. The C&R's need to exist in the SLI itself in order to endure. Much the way Nicolau accounted for the top 517. A properly constructed list does not need many C&R's or fences.

No matter how you slice it, Nic is the middle ground and DOH is not. And debating the fairness of it infinitely here does not change the fact that the law will eventually set this mess straight. Not east or west. Outside of the courts, a representational election with east pilots who are tired of the stagnation and LOA93 siding with the west, and moving forward with significant contract improvements and a Nic inclusive list is the only other way.

 

[prechilill]

You refuse to look a the facts, or are just flat out making it up. You SAID that the east had GROWN it's list by X number. It has not. Attached, again, is bid 05-03 that shows that in June '05 we had 2782 pilot positions on the bid. That does not include various pilots, so the whole list was more. I'm not going to add up active pilots on the Nic, so if I take you word for it, we lost around 600 pilots between the date of the merger and when Nic cleaned up the list. How is that growth? Monda had those pilots come in behind him because we were understaffed on May 19, 2005 and before the Nic came out there was that much attrition! We have less hulls today than in May '05.

Figures lie and liars figure. It is you filter that (twists, makes up, whatever) to come to the conclusion you want. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots. Then go look at the active pilots for the March 2011 seniority list- it has grown by 600. 'Splain that Einstein...

Also, take a closer look at you bid package from May 2005 and compare it to the seniority list of May 2005- The numbers are far from matching. So, where is the problem? It's right there! You are assuming "A head count" is the same as "active pilots". It is not the same as "active pilots". You can look at your linked seniority list and see that just by comparing the number of people on each listed counted as LOA, medical or leave status. Either the seniority list for that period is wrong or you are misinterpreting what "head count" is. You assume it means active pilots and that, dude, is a big assumption. I seriously doubt seniority lists could be in error by 500 people. Besides, if you take your "head count" number as actual active pilots flying your airline was short 500 people.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE DUDE

 

[Pi brat]

Dude,
go look at the seniority list for May, 2005. You have 2200 active pilots. Then go look at the active pilots for the March 2011 seniority list- it has grown by 600. 'Splain that Einstein...

Also, take a closer look at you bid package from May 2005 and compare it to the seniority list of May 2005- The numbers are far from matching. So, where is the problem? It's right there! You are assuming "A head count" is the same as "active pilots". It is not the same as "active pilots". You can look at your linked seniority list and see that just by comparing the number of people on each listed counted as LOA, medical or leave status. Either the seniority list for that period is wrong or you are misinterpreting what "head count" is. You assume it means active pilots and that, dude, is a big assumption. I seriously doubt seniority lists could be in error by 500 people. Besides, if you take your "head count" number as actual active pilots flying your airline was short 500 people.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE DUDE

Jim, do you agree? Been waiting to hear from you.

I don't have the full seniority list from May 2005. Post it and if you are correct I will say so. Bottom line, bid for June '03 has 2782 bid position on it, bid for Mar '11 has 2592. We have shrunk our hulls by about what, 60? I'm pretty sure we had more than 220o ACTIVE pilots on May '05. How can that be growth? And don't dude me.

 

[Barrister]

It's not that simple. Once the seniority list is complete and ops specs are combined, crews will start flying with each other. That's one of the major synergies the company gets. No more dual scheduling. So in your scenario, east and west crews fly together, with the east having their DOH. But when furloughs happen you start taking people out of the system via the Nic list or "former east list" and they start coming out of the system in random places, creating huge retraining expenses for the company trying to back fill those vacancies left by furloughed pilots. furloughing from the bottom up still creates training expense but not to the same degree. And its an expense they could hardly afford since in a furlough scenario the company is trying to conserve cash.

There is also no way to tell where the "shrinkage" would have really come from absent the merger. The merger changes the business plan based on new metrics throughout the system. If traffic increases for example, for passengers wanting to go from PHL to Hawaii, does the company route them via CLT or PHX? This decision effects where flying would go. What about other routes that only had the feed to fill an RJ? Now the additional traffic of the combined airline makes that same route more effective with an A320. Did that feed come from the east or the west? The economy will also affect those decisions. Presumably an increase in business travel would benefit the east coast corridor and the shuttle, while an increase in leisure travel would benefit the west. UA always benefits to a larger degree than any other airline when business fares increase, while suffering more when the economy turns down. Stage length also increases CASM which is bad for the east unless fares are stable or increasing. All of these factors play into the decision of where to allocate assets, and it is constantly changing, often from one season to the next.

When you look at the macro-econmics, it is not as simple as saying shrink the east furlough the east... shrink the west furlough the west. Same goes for growth. Who created the growth? That's why growth needs to be shared equally, or at least by a ratio decided by the arbitrator. (ie: 2/3 of the upgrades go east)

Finally, C&R's often go away in mergers. So the theory floated around here of an impending future merger negates any of these DOH with C&R ideas. The C&R's need to exist in the SLI itself in order to endure. Much the way Nicolau accounted for the top 517. A properly constructed list does not need many C&R's or fences.

No matter how you slice it, Nic is the middle ground and DOH is not. And debating the fairness of it infinitely here does not change the fact that the law will eventually set this mess straight. Not east or west. Outside of the courts, a representational election with east pilots who are tired of the stagnation and LOA93 siding with the west, and moving forward with significant contract improvements and a Nic inclusive list is the only other way.
[/quote

Yes,....and tell again please why you care??

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Pi brat]

Anyone have the active pilots vs. hulls for each side on May 19 2005?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, do you agree? Been waiting to hear from you.

With anything in particular? Active on the seniority list isn't the same as the head count - I thought we went through that before. Head count on a permanent bid is the number of actual flying jobs while active includes anyone drawing a paycheck at the time the seniority list was run.

I never paid much attention to the seniority list active numbers - at least the company's official seniority list put out early each year - because by the time it got to the pilots it was already out of date. The bid seniority list was more up to date, especially for status.

One thing hadn't occurred to me before. After the post-911 furlough in 2002, US didn't recall/hire till after the PID/merger and there was still a fair amount of attrition in those years. So, just as they did after the '91 furlough, US just reduced the head count on the permanent bids to match the declining number of pilots available for flying the line. Of course, the declining number of planes was part of that too.

Jim

 

[Barrister]

I agree 100% with your entire post with the exception of the highlighted part above.

It was a true statement not so long ago. But IMO, USAPA no longer has majority support. Their support is waning as evidenced by some of the posters here as well as the internal fist fights and political maneuvering. Their train wreck is being driven by the leadership and the vocal minority. As soon as the LOA 93 grievance is settled against the east, things will unravel further and a representational election is most certain. The implosion is unfolding before our eyes. Expect the rhetoric of the usual suspects on this forum to increase and spin out of control as the end approaches.

Yes, and tell us please why you care???

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[CallawayGolf]

Where I come from, we call that a "whopper". How does a statement like that meet the definition of personal integrity OR honor. You HAVE to know that can't be true even if USAPA got their DOH.

Driver <_<

A "whopper"?

From the Nicolau Award:
"As previously stated, giving sole consideration to the date of hire and length of service would put the senior America West pilot some 900 to 1100 numbers down the combined list. US Airways proposed restrictions, both as to aircraft and length, would unduly deprive too many senior America West pilots of upgrade opportunities for too long a time, and would also put a number of active America West pilots below long-furloughed US Airways pilots who, until the merger, had little prospect of an early return."

Seems that the neutral arbitrator thought it was a fact rather than a fabrication. And he wasn't even taking future furloughs into consideration, only that AWA pilots would be moved down the seniority list; some even being displaced by long-furloughed US pilots which would violate the SLI and TA requirements. Care to revise your accusation?

 

[Pi brat]

With anything in particular? Active on the seniority list isn't the same as the head count - I thought we went through that before. Head count on a permanent bid is the number of actual flying jobs while active includes anyone drawing a paycheck at the time the seniority list was run.

I never paid much attention to the seniority list active numbers - at least the company's official seniority list put out early each year - because by the time it got to the pilots it was already out of date. The bid seniority list was more up to date, especially for status.

One thing hadn't occurred to me before. After the post-911 furlough in 2002, US didn't recall/hire till after the PID/merger and there was still a fair amount of attrition in those years. So, just as they did after the '91 furlough, US just reduced the head count on the permanent bids to match the declining number of pilots available for flying the line. Of course, the declining number of planes was part of that too.

Jim

What? Do you not remember the conversation on whether the east had "grown" as prechil asserted? You said you were transferring files from an old computer.

Bid 05-03, under Summary Domicile Variance, shows 2782 positions. From your above post it sounds like that is actual flying jobs, correct? Bid 11-01 shows a number of 2592 for the same thing. Does that look like growth to you? Do your recall us being understaffed in the '05 time frame? With this info., is there any possible way that pre's claim, that the east had 2200 active pilots on May 19 2005, can be true?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Anyone have the active pilots vs. hulls for each side on May 19 2005?

It's all in the Nicolau Award. Perhaps you might consider giving it a read sometime.

 

[Pi brat]

One thing hadn't occurred to me before. After the post-911 furlough in 2002, US didn't recall/hire till after the PID/merger and there was still a fair amount of attrition in those years. So, just as they did after the '91 furlough, US just reduced the head count on the permanent bids to match the declining number of pilots available for flying the line. Of course, the declining number of planes was part of that too.

Jim

Agreed. Prior to the merger, our shrinkage either kept up with or out ran our attrition. After the merger our attrition out ran our shrinkage and finally there was upward movement. It is why, that despite losing hulls, I am now a capt. while I was a little bus F/O on May 19 2005. Not growth. It's what is so frustrating with the Nic, after waiting all those years, it is here, yet he decided to give it to another group.

 

[Pi brat]

It's all in the Nicolau Award. Perhaps you might consider giving it a read sometime.

Was being arrogant and condescending a requirement for hiring at AWA?

I've read it many time, forgot that it was in there. I will take a look. Thanks.

 

[767jetz]

It's not that simple. Once the seniority list is complete and ops specs are combined, crews will start flying with each other. That's one of the major synergies the company gets. No more dual scheduling. So in your scenario, east and west crews fly together, with the east having their DOH. But when furloughs happen you start taking people out of the system via the Nic list or "former east list" and they start coming out of the system in random places, creating huge retraining expenses for the company trying to back fill those vacancies left by furloughed pilots. furloughing from the bottom up still creates training expense but not to the same degree. And its an expense they could hardly afford since in a furlough scenario the company is trying to conserve cash.

There is also no way to tell where the "shrinkage" would have really come from absent the merger. The merger changes the business plan based on new metrics throughout the system. If traffic increases for example, for passengers wanting to go from PHL to Hawaii, does the company route them via CLT or PHX? This decision effects where flying would go. What about other routes that only had the feed to fill an RJ? Now the additional traffic of the combined airline makes that same route more effective with an A320. Did that feed come from the east or the west? The economy will also affect those decisions. Presumably an increase in business travel would benefit the east coast corridor and the shuttle, while an increase in leisure travel would benefit the west. UA always benefits to a larger degree than any other airline when business fares increase, while suffering more when the economy turns down. Stage length also increases CASM which is bad for the east unless fares are stable or increasing. All of these factors play into the decision of where to allocate assets, and it is constantly changing, often from one season to the next.

When you look at the macro-econmics, it is not as simple as saying shrink the east furlough the east... shrink the west furlough the west. Same goes for growth. Who created the growth? That's why growth needs to be shared equally, or at least by a ratio decided by the arbitrator. (ie: 2/3 of the upgrades go east)

Finally, C&R's often go away in mergers. So the theory floated around here of an impending future merger negates any of these DOH with C&R ideas. The C&R's need to exist in the SLI itself in order to endure. Much the way Nicolau accounted for the top 517. A properly constructed list does not need many C&R's or fences.

No matter how you slice it, Nic is the middle ground and DOH is not. And debating the fairness of it infinitely here does not change the fact that the law will eventually set this mess straight. Not east or west. Outside of the courts, a representational election with east pilots who are tired of the stagnation and LOA93 siding with the west, and moving forward with significant contract improvements and a Nic inclusive list is the only other way.

Yes,....

Great. So you agree. Thanks for your honest and simple response. (Minus the last part.)

 

[BoeingBoy]

yet he decided to give it to another group.

He split it with roughly 2/3 of total attrition going to the East. As in your case, it was attrition in the captain ranks that allowed you to make captain and the captain attrition is about 2/3 from the East also.

As I've said before, the East MC said that they could likely protect the attritiion and widebodies, but under threat of recall they were forced to try for nothing less than DOH.

Jim