US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

Henry Hubschman

We lost a friend and a very good man this week. Henry Hubschman, the former chairman and CEO of GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) died of cancer at the age of 63. Henry built GECAS into the world's largest aircraft leasing firm and was one of the most influential people in the history of commercial aviation. He also played an enormous role in the success of US Airways and for that we are extremely grateful.

Henry was instrumental in helping America West receive a government loan guarantee after 9/11. He aggressively supported our application with members of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury department, bringing the full support of GE to our cause. Without Henry's hard work, I do not believe America West would have received a loan guarantee and without that guarantee, America West would not have survived.

America West did survive, though, and was there to help US Airways avoid liquidation in 2005 through our historic merger. Henry led GECAS' support of that merger, which enabled us to attract capital from a number of other sources and fund the transaction. More recently, Henry and GECAS played a role in helping us raise nearly $900 million in late 2008, which allowed us to manage through another difficult time in aviation history.

As you review that history, I think it's fair to say that none of us would be working here if weren't for Henry Hubschman.

Of course, Henry didn't do these things out of benevolence to US Airways; he was a smart and tough-minded GE executive who made these decisions because he believed they were in the best interest of GE, which leases airplanes and sells engines. However, he took the time to understand the drivers behind our circumstances and had the foresight to understand what was needed to address them.

Most importantly, he had faith in our team. He believed we could do what we said were going to do, while our competitors and some skeptics were suggesting we could not. I have always worked very hard to make sure we validated that confidence - largely because that's our job - but also because I didn't want to let Henry down.

Thanks to all of you, we have proven him right and I know he appreciated your hard work. Please take a little time to pause and thank Henry this week and send your positive thoughts and prayers to his wife, Joanne, and their four children.

Thank you, Henry, from all of US. Safe travels, my friend.

Doug

So let me understand this. You are now using memorial letters written by our CEO to argue your position that you don't have to abide by a final and binding arbitration? Please don't forget the FACT that America West DID get the loans and survived 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to fly. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to bring back all of its furloughed pilots. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to hire off the street. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to make a profit post 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to sign an improved pilot contract that was post 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to merge with another airline vs. buying assets (think SWAL & ATA). I think you forgot to highlight & bold some of the more important text, so I gave you a little hand.

We (the former AWA pilot group) stand firmly on legal, moral & ethical grounds (specifically as it pertains to the merged pilot seniority list). We will not be bullied, we will not capitulate, we will not waiver, we will not cave. You have spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of "our union dues" in this chase that will likely lead you over the cliff just as a group of lemmings.

Have a blessed and wonderful day.

 

[Pi brat]

In one sense yes although it wasn't the East pilots that were the root of the problem. At HP's cost structure they could compete with primarily WN out west but the merger brought East's high costs to the party which made competing with WN in LAS/PHX and a lot of western routes much harder and even impossible in some cases. So management did what it had to do to compete - shift flying to the higher revenue eastern part of the country and shrink the airline to the minimum allowed by the TA (which leaves the East with at least 15 more planes than the fleet minimum).

Jim

You know what, this place is like a soap opera, tune in a few months later and seethe same story line.

You are a smart guy, but the guys that are paid to run this place have said this is not true. I believe it was Kirby that said that he cost of running the west system had not changed much except for....................FUEL. What worked at $35 a barrel would not work at $50 and above. Just a few months ago Doug said AWA had a model that no longer worked. The west is full of stories of 7 year upgrades, new airplanes coming etc., but we know that past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Facts: AWA attempted expansion into trans-con non-stops didn't work, with fuel below $50 they lost money in the 4th quarter 2004, only made money 1st quarter '05 on fuel hedging, and lost money 2nd quarter '05. AWA always had low costs for a hub and spoke airline, but they had low RASM to go with it. Have you noticed the shift at SWA away from concentrating only on low costs to chasing revenue? Airplane orders often go poof and upgrades can turn to furloughs in a few months.

See jay is right. If it was working so good why did they walk away from it? Charity? I don't think so. Doug knew AWA's future looked shaky and a merger was the best option. A merger with US was either the only or best option at the time. US had lowered it's costs to a level that with it's revenue, it could make money. Both companies are better off with it than without it and all this who saved who is a worthless exercise.

 

[Pi brat]

I can tell you my life was a lot better before Dougie cast the lifeline out. He drug the carcass to Tempe with some expectation that he had become the CEO of a "Legacy" carrier. Instead, he is the CEO of big friggin mess almost 6 years later and profiting from our misery.

I'm sure you life was better then, just as mine was before 1989. The reality is the same for both of us though, that we don't know what the future would have brought absent the respective mergers. I think our chances in '89 were better than yours in 2005. If you guys would take the blinders off you would see that the short period of relative glory AWA had was about over, and the alternative to a merger(at least stand alone) would have been worse than the merger with US has been.

 

[Pi brat]

And added more than 400 active east pilots flying since the PID.

And how was that done? You never got back to me on that whole growth thing, and your buddy Jim never did either. How did we bring back those pilots while shrinking the fleet so much?

 

[nic4us]

No kidding. Your screen name says it all. Nic or nothing. Same as USAPA...DOH or nothing. No difference between the two in my eyes.

Driver <_<

I am simply being pragmatic.

The difference between me and usapa is clear.

I think that once the arbitrator ruled, that was it, section 22 was complete, that portion of bargaining was over, move on to the other sections. It is now up to the representative agent to craft a contract that can pass membership ratification. If they have to think outside the box and come up with terms that the membership can live with taking into account the context of the seniority award, then so be it. Ideas like longevity pay, or f/o pay out to twenty years that becomes equal to captain pay etc. If we had done something like that I would have considered bidding back to f/o if I could keep my paycheck, and get better schedules.

usapa, on the other hand, feels that majority rule and their own C&BL trump common sense and federal law. The premise that by changing CBAs the majority could renege on a binding arbitration with its fellow members is mind bogglingly stupid, particularly when the company is a third party to the TA.

The West screwed up also. During the Rice debacle, the West should have pushed for mutual solutions in other areas of the contract. When ALPA started down their Prater led DFR path of pressuring the West MEC to fail in its duty to its constituents, the West could have politely said, this award is final, lets find some other way to fix the east's percieved problems.

But, nobody wanted any part of solving the problem, which was not the Nic award, it was the circumstances that led to the Nic award. I have said many times, the east pilots did not understand the position they are/were in. The arbitrator says "you are not getting DOH come up with something else", the east demands DOH. A final and binding award is published, the east says we can use majority rule to renege. usapa is found guilty of DFR in a jury trial, appeals, the appelate court tells them, come up with something the West won't sue you over and you won't get sued, and usapa thinks that is a free pass to continue down its ill fated DOH persuit, that is a proven loser, even when everybody is telling them, you will get sued and likely lose.

So, you are right. I am the same as usapa, in that my position is immovable. However, we are vastly different in that I understand that in order to move forward, there must be a reconciliation of this pilot group. In order for that to happen there must be at least a minimum of mutual respect and trust. That trust begins or ends with the east accepting the Nicolau award.

Sorry for the long post, I guess I did not like being compared to usapa.

 

[nic4us]

So let me understand this. You are now using memorial letters written by our CEO to argue your position that you don't have to abide by a final and binding arbitration? Please don't forget the FACT that America West DID get the loans and survived 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to fly. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to bring back all of its furloughed pilots. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to hire off the street. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to make a profit post 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to sign an improved pilot contract that was post 9/11. America West Airlines was the FIRST MAJOR AIRLINE to merge with another airline vs. buying assets (think SWAL & ATA). I think you forgot to highlight & bold some of the more important text, so I gave you a little hand.

We (the former AWA pilot group) stand firmly on legal, moral & ethical grounds (specifically as it pertains to the merged pilot seniority list). We will not be bullied, we will not capitulate, we will not waiver, we will not cave. You have spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of "our union dues" in this chase that will likely lead you over the cliff just as a group of lemmings.

Have a blessed and wonderful day.

We rocked!!!!

This is the solution to the whole problem by the way.

We get the east to come off the woe is me attitude, and quit trying to seek gains within the company, and get them to realize we don't take jobs from West pilots, we take them from potential DAL/UAL/SWA pilots.

I guess the east being mistreated for so long is why they are so pessimistic as to any future.

 

[cactusboy53]

Actually, it was new hires....way more than one.... who went above MANY 17 year never furloughed East pilots.

NICDOA
NPJB

I see that from USAPA's Date-of Hire (w/ conditions & restrictions - of course) that AAA pilot Monda had 16.8 years of UNINTERRUPTED service. Then he and AWA pilot O'Dell have that in common. O'Dell also had uninterrupted service at AWA.

Both pilot's Monda & O'Dell were the most JUNIOR pilots actively employed at the respective carriers at the time of the merger announcement. Period.

 

[prechilill]

And how was that done? You never got back to me on that whole growth thing, and your buddy Jim never did either. How did we bring back those pilots while shrinking the fleet so much?

I did, you filter facts so the post probably didn't register (no surprise). Here it is again.
Take a look at the Nicolau award and count the number of active pilots. Approximately 2200
Count the number of active pilots posted on the 3/2011 seniority list on wings. Approximately 2650 pilots. Monda has about 600 active names behind him.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

 

[767jetz]

it’s a difference of personal integrity and honor (or the lack thereof for the majority on the east).

I agree 100% with your entire post with the exception of the highlighted part above.

It was a true statement not so long ago. But IMO, USAPA no longer has majority support. Their support is waning as evidenced by some of the posters here as well as the internal fist fights and political maneuvering. Their train wreck is being driven by the leadership and the vocal minority. As soon as the LOA 93 grievance is settled against the east, things will unravel further and a representational election is most certain. The implosion is unfolding before our eyes. Expect the rhetoric of the usual suspects on this forum to increase and spin out of control as the end approaches.

 

[Zone5]

Maybe you should just stick to flying the airplanes then. I certainly can't read Parker's mind - either now or in 2005 - but have wondered if he was looking at East on paper instead of reality. But if you doubt what I said about the cost structures dig up the quarterly reports for HP, US, and WN back in 2004/2005 and see for yourself what the CASM was for each (and don't forget to include USX since US only reported CASM for mainline). I don't remember the exact numbers but HP's CASM was about half a cent higher than WN's while US was more than double WN.

What your paycheck said was only one factor of another factor and that was only that every working pilot at US was making top of scale while WN and HP were hiring and had a significant number of pilots not yet at top of scale. The truth was that US ran an inefficient airline and in both bankruptcies sought to compensate mainly with employee concessions. But Siegel and Lakefield both made a critical mistake - shrinking mainline and adding RJ's. The less than top of scale employees were mostly furloughed in 2002 and replaced with high CASM RJ's. And employee pay was only 1 factor in US' higher CASM which is why I said that the pilots weren't the root of the problem.

Jim

Alright, the West CASM was (is) very close to WN. All the more reason to keep the East and West separate and let PHX go after those pesky Southwest guys. Why would you want to shrink a lower cost operation to grow a higher cost operation? Those of us who have to spend time actually flying airplanes, instead of just talking about it, just don't have enough time left over to understand all this "management" stuff. We need your help, please explain this to us.

seajay

 

[Pi brat]

I did, you filter facts so the post probably didn't register (no surprise). Here it is again.
Take a look at the Nicolau award and count the number of active pilots. Approximately 2200
Count the number of active pilots posted on the 3/2011 seniority list on wings. Approximately 2650 pilots. Monda has about 600 active names behind him.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

You refuse to look a the facts, or are just flat out making it up. You SAID that the east had GROWN it's list by X number. It has not. Attached, again, is bid 05-03 that shows that in June '05 we had 2782 pilot positions on the bid. That does not include various pilots, so the whole list was more. I'm not going to add up active pilots on the Nic, so if I take you word for it, we lost around 600 pilots between the date of the merger and when Nic cleaned up the list. How is that growth? Monda had those pilots come in behind him because we were understaffed on May 19, 2005 and before the Nic came out there was that much attrition! We have less hulls today than in May '05.

Figures lie and liars figure. It is you filter that (twists, makes up, whatever) to come to the conclusion you want. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

 

[767jetz]

we take them from potential DAL/UAL/SWA pilots.

Hey! Wait a minute!

 

[Zone5]

It's been stated many times before but perhaps you didn't read it here: no C&R or fences provide protection from being furlough-fodder. The only thing that protects one from furlough is his/her seniority. The USAPA-desired seniority list makes furlough-fodder and that's just one of the reasons the C&Rs are irrelevant to the West.

Plus, you say "come back to the table". Who exactly would come to the table representing the West? As you well know USAPA is our legal bargaining representative now. There's no "walking away" when there's no table to begin with. A solution might have been possible if we still were ALPA with separate MECs but USAPA removed the West as a separate entity.

So you'll have to revise your lamentation to match the reality of the situation. The only way to appease the West, such as it is, is to present a contract for vote that the West can accept. Will that ever happen? Not from USAPA it won't.

The C&R's could be changed to keep the seniority lists for former East and West pilots separate for purposes of any future furlough. Shrink the East and after you work through the new hires, you go to the former East list and go from there. Same for West shrinkage.

"Who exactly would come to the table representing the West?" How about the PHX reps, oh I forgot, that's the guys who refuse to show up at the contract mediation table.

seajay

 

[767jetz]

Interesting video of ual, cal seniority information

More recycled old news. A video introducing the CO merger committee members to the CO pilots, and explaining the merger process.

Highlights...
- CO's list can not be re-ordered.
- Bid what you want. Want what you bid. Your place on the list is not affected by what you bid. Only what your number can hold. (ie: captain seniority who bids f/o for QWL still is considered captain seniority for integration purposes.)
- Multiple integration scenarios will be analyzed, and it would be irresponsible to predict an outcome.
- No bump. No Flush.
- No ratification of the seniority list.
- Negotiate, Mediate, Arbitrate.
- Arbitration is final and binding.

Did I miss anything? Do you have a point you are trying to make? If so, it's pretty vague.

 

[A320 Driver]

I am simply being pragmatic.

The difference between me and usapa is clear.

I think that once the arbitrator ruled, that was it, section 22 was complete, that portion of bargaining was over, move on to the other sections. It is now up to the representative agent to craft a contract that can pass membership ratification. If they have to think outside the box and come up with terms that the membership can live with taking into account the context of the seniority award, then so be it. Ideas like longevity pay, or f/o pay out to twenty years that becomes equal to captain pay etc. If we had done something like that I would have considered bidding back to f/o if I could keep my paycheck, and get better schedules.

usapa, on the other hand, feels that majority rule and their own C&BL trump common sense and federal law. The premise that by changing CBAs the majority could renege on a binding arbitration with its fellow members is mind bogglingly stupid, particularly when the company is a third party to the TA.

The West screwed up also. During the Rice debacle, the West should have pushed for mutual solutions in other areas of the contract. When ALPA started down their Prater led DFR path of pressuring the West MEC to fail in its duty to its constituents, the West could have politely said, this award is final, lets find some other way to fix the east's percieved problems.

But, nobody wanted any part of solving the problem, which was not the Nic award, it was the circumstances that led to the Nic award. I have said many times, the east pilots did not understand the position they are/were in. The arbitrator says "you are not getting DOH come up with something else", the east demands DOH. A final and binding award is published, the east says we can use majority rule to renege. usapa is found guilty of DFR in a jury trial, appeals, the appelate court tells them, come up with something the West won't sue you over and you won't get sued, and usapa thinks that is a free pass to continue down its ill fated DOH persuit, that is a proven loser, even when everybody is telling them, you will get sued and likely lose.

So, you are right. I am the same as usapa, in that my position is immovable. However, we are vastly different in that I understand that in order to move forward, there must be a reconciliation of this pilot group. In order for that to happen there must be at least a minimum of mutual respect and trust. That trust begins or ends with the east accepting the Nicolau award.

Sorry for the long post, I guess I did not like being compared to usapa.

I was not comparing you personally to USAPA. I was comparing the Nic or nothing vs DOH or nothing position. I assumed, based on your screen name that you were in the first camp.
There is much in you post that I do agree with. Contrary to popular belief, I do not support either position and feel they will both be our ruination.

Driver B)