US Pilots Labor Discussion

[crazystnic]

There has been a lot of talk about how the East want's the West to be "furlough fodder" in the event that the company decides to shrink again. How about separating the seniority list into West and East (pre-merger components) to be used only in the event of a future furlough. Cuts in East flying would come out of the East list and cuts in the West flying would come out of the West list. New hires would go first of course.

Like I said, it's not rocket science.

seajay

*********************
there you go Zone, well done talking about solutions... but hey we can have none of that around here.

 

[mikey60]

Maybe that is because, you obviously do not proofread your own post.

HAHAHAH...maybe you should.( see above)

 

[crazystnic]

Say what? Attrition out of the right seat has no value! Tell that to the pilots currently in training for F/O on the 330 and 75/76, both jobs that currently pay more than any F/O position on the West. Not to mention the 170 pilots who are now moving up to higher paying narrow body aircraft.

It's not just about being a captain. I guess when you have one pay rate and one crew base for all aircraft, it is all about moving to the left seat. Not so on the East.

seajay

yes and there certainly is value if the person leaving is senior to you!.. duh

 

[crazystnic]

I've told you before that I'm not playing your silly game. You made the accusation so prove it to be true.

Jim

You really must have no life...

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is rather complicated on the East. For instance, based on the last East permanent bid, May 2011, there are 360 widebody F/O's, including ALL of the CLT 330 F/O's, who have the seniority to hold 320 or 737 Captain.

Having been on the permanent bid closing committee, I know it can be complicated. That's why the assumptions used for a spreadsheet that promises to show progression in 5, 10, 15 or more years is basically meaningless. While in theory every pilot could move if the bottom guy on the East list leaves or conversely no other pilot would move if the top pilot on the East list leaves, the reality is generally between those two extremes. Only one thing is certain - when a pilot leaves the vacancy that starts the chain of movement is the job that leaving pilot held. If that's generally a job those at the upper end of the list hold there'll be a longer chain of upward movement than when someone holding a lower level job leaves.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

You really must have no life...

Just tired of Nos spreading his lies. Even you said one of those lies was untrue, yet Nos refuses to do the same. He won't even stop spreading the same lies. But perhaps you enjoy being lied about...

Jim

 

[traderjake]

And lousy grammer..don't forget that Traitor.

Driver B)

No one is wants a group of bitter, old pilots who can't be trusted, have lousy "grammer" and spelling.

 

[A320 Driver]

No one is wants a group of bitter, old pilots who can't be trusted, have lousy "grammer" and spelling.

HELLO....

 

[Reed Richards]

Just tired of Nos spreading his lies. Even you said one of those lies was untrue, yet Nos refuses to do the same. He won't even stop spreading the same lies. But perhaps you enjoy being lied about...

Jim

Yeah, I hear you. But you indeed must not have a life, and you seem hell bent on trashing any friends you ever had on this property. And I am tired of hearing of hearing the know-it-all ramblings of a bitter old man, who feels his career was so bad he has to dig up stuff like this (ANY reason for doing this is unacceptable):

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.
Jim

RR

 

[Hate2fly]

Having been on the permanent bid closing committee, I know it can be complicated. That's why the assumptions used for a spreadsheet that promises to show progression in 5, 10, 15 or more years is basically meaningless. While in theory every pilot could move if the bottom guy on the East list leaves or conversely no other pilot would move if the top pilot on the East list leaves, the reality is generally between those two extremes. Only one thing is certain - when a pilot leaves the vacancy that starts the chain of movement is the job that leaving pilot held. If that's generally a job those at the upper end of the list hold there'll be a longer chain of upward movement than when someone holding a lower level job leaves.

Jim

Jim,

Do you guys on the bid closing committee take into account check pilots reaching mandatory retirement? I bring this up because we have a fair amount of check pilots that are approaching retirement in less than 22 months. With the May bid published, the east is in my view less than 1 year away from massive movement. We in the east will have to be hiring 20 to 30 pilots per month by early 2012. The training float, age 65 retirements in December 2012 and all of the unexpected medical issues will be the drivers in the real movement. Many of our senior pilots are check pilots. This will create more issues for the company because it takes at least 4 months to get a check pilot up to speed. I read your comments about attrition not really understanding how you can say it is basically meaningless.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

No one is wants a group of bitter, old pilots who can't be trusted, have lousy "grammer" and spelling.

traderjake,

Are you kidding? The older the group the better! Attrition is the gold standard. Average age in the east 59 years old. More than 2800 east pilots will be gone in 14 years.

Hate

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

Do you guys on the bid closing committee take into account check pilots reaching mandatory retirement? I bring this up because we have a fair amount of check pilots that are approaching retirement in less than 22 months. With the May bid published, the east is in my view less than 1 year away from massive movement. We in the east will have to be hiring 20 to 30 pilots per month by early 2012. The training float, age 65 retirements in December 2012 and all of the unexpected medical issues will be the drivers in the real movement. Many of our senior pilots are check pilots. This will create more issues for the company because it takes at least 4 months to get a check pilot up to speed. I read your comments about attrition not really understanding how you can say it is basically meaningless.

Hate

Again, I never said that attrition was meaningless. Merely that just looking at the raw number of age 65 retirements in a given period leads to thinking that there will be more attrition movement than there really will be. What produces movement is primarily vacancies created by retirement (once people start reaching 65), and the the higher up the food chain of jobs a pilot retires from the more "trickle down" movement there is. In other words, a 330 captain retiring will create more movement than a 76D FO retiring. Of course, a pilot returning to the line as 737 captain may not leave a vacancy and could cause more displacements if the 737 fleet is shrinking. In other words, while they are taken into account, they don't each fly a full line every month.

As for the check airmen, at the time I retired resource planning used the number that were retiring in a bid and where they would fly to come up with training department lines. At that time the check airmen were all captains and used these lines to do IOE's. I know that LOA 93 provides for FO sim check airmen but don't know if that was ever utilized, but in the bid packet you can look at the last number for any base/equipment/position and see how many lines are set aside for check airmen - CLT 767I FO shows 1 anticipated training line, for example (and would indicate that FO's are doing at least some sim training). What that 1 means is that one of 1 of the 51 lines will be used by check airmen for IOE's and currency (the 51 is the sum of regular lines plus the training line).

While I agree that training float, normal retirements, early retirements, people going on or coming from medical and "supervisory" will be drivers of actual movement, most of it will be driven by age 65 retirement I suspect. That was the case when the retirement age was 60 and just looking at the bids since the change it still seems that there aren't that many leaving/returning to the line for the other reasons.

And just for info, it's rare for a pilot retiring to leave a vacancy on their 65th birthday - the bids always have an effective date of the 1st of a month and pilots have birthdays throughout a month. Age 65 retirements create vacancies on the closest bid effective date.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

Yeah, I hear you. But you indeed must not have a life, and you seem hell bent on trashing any friends you ever had on this property. And I am tired of hearing of hearing the know-it-all ramblings of a bitter old man, who feels his career was so bad he has to dig up stuff like this (ANY reason for doing this is unacceptable):



RR

I don't think he had any friends in the past, he's just a lonely old man that has nothing better to do in life, you have to kinda feel sorry for him. My biggest fear is I don't wind up like him after I go, although I have to many hobbies!!!! it should not be a proplem. PS anyone with old ALPA magazines please foward them to Jim!!!r

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yeah, I hear you. But you indeed must not have a life, and you seem hell bent on trashing any friends you ever had on this property.

If it takes as little as disagreeing on how to integrate seniority, they probably weren't friends. You'll note that my post you repeat urges not using an individual's actions to judge the group nor use the groups action to judge the individual, something Nos loves to do. I would think you'd agree with that sentiment

Jim

 

[jetjok1]

Checked the history of your posts. What kind of syrup do you like with your waffles?

jetjokpost

I don't eat waffles, they're fattening and they're full of carbs and sugar. Must be your diet intake.