US Pilots Labor Discussion

[crazystnic]

I see that you were unable to make a specific claim against the award, but there is no surprise there really. However, the arbitrator deftly addressed both of these issues you cited (two-sides of the same coin really) and ensured that the award did not constitute a windfall for either side and ensured that any detrimental changes to career expectations were minimized. Remember that “windfall” is defined as coming at the expense of the other side. The ratio method of integration buffeted the award from being a windfall in comparison to a staple of one list to the bottom of the other. Also, in protecting the 517WB positions, this ensured that even the most senior west pilot would not have the immediate ability to displace any currently-serving WB positions which legitimately would have been a windfall coming at the expense of the other side. Therefore, no windfall.

Likewise, the detrimental effect on career expectations was minimized via the ratio integration process. The ALPA policy does not call for NO detrimental effect in career expectations; rather it calls for a minimizing of the detrimental effects. So, the question becomes, did the Award minimize the detrimental affects while holding firm to the original objectives as I listed above? The answer, in my opinion, is clearly yes. East pilots were not displaced from their current positions because of the award and continued to have advancement opportunities as may be afforded by a new seniority number that places the pilot in the same relative position as was held before, except that this is now held in a bigger pilot population with both east and west AC fleets to seek opportunities from. Of course if you disagree, you can sue ALPA for an Award that does not meet their SLI policy. Have you done that? Has anyone? Didn’t think so. I’m not sure what the statute of limitations is on suing for this kind of matter, but the east pilots might run out of time before they get to challenge the merits of the Nicolau award if it hasn’t happened already.

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putting a new hire ahead of a 1989 hire who had 12 years of active service and who would of greatly benefited from the attrition the EAST brought was a windfall.

Please spare yourself all the words it really doesn't take that many to explain it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

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putting a new hire ahead of a 1989 hire who had 12 years of active service and who would of greatly benefited from the attrition the EAST brought was a windfall.

Please spare yourself all the words it really doesn't take that many to explain it.

So how is an actively serving 2005 hired HP pilot advancing via a windfall at the expense of the one hired at US in 1989? Was the 1989 holding an active line at the time of the merger? If so, how many active US pilots were below him versus the number above him? What was his effective seniority percentile? How far away in terms of positions was he from being furloughed? Was it roughly the same number of positions that the HP 2005 new hire had? No windfall if they were roughly in the same pre-merger percentile and ended up in roughly the same percentile on the merged seniority list.

The Arbitration Board disagreed with your hypothesis. ALPA accepted and subsequently presented the list to Management, so they also disagreed. Like I said, feel free to sue away if you think a case can be made that the ALPA policy was violated by the construction of the award. Until a judge rules in your favor that the list creates a windfall, it is really just your opinion. Of course since no one has taken then NIC to court, it wouldn’t seem that there are very many who agree that a legal case for a windfall at the expense of another can be made.

 

[crazystnic]

So how is an actively serving 2005 hired HP pilot advancing via a windfall at the expense of the one hired at US in 1989? Was the 1989 holding an active line at the time of the merger? If so, how many active US pilots were below him versus the number above him? What was his effective seniority percentile? How far away in terms of positions was he from being furloughed? Was it roughly the same number of positions that the HP 2005 new hire had? No windfall if they were roughly in the same pre-merger percentile and ended up in roughly the same percentile on the merged seniority list.

The Arbitration Board disagreed with your hypothesis. ALPA accepted and subsequently presented the list to Management, so they also disagreed. Like I said, feel free to sue away if you think a case can be made that the ALPA policy was violated by the construction of the award. Until a judge rules in your favor that the list creates a windfall, it is really just your opinion. Of course since no one has taken then NIC to court, it wouldn’t seem that there are very many who agree that a legal case for a windfall at the expense of another can be made.

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yes waste of breath here... I'm all for a solution but that doesn't seem possible now does it.. hardened positions and all.


so pay up and we will resolve this in court many years down the line.

In the meantime I will enjoy my 45 percent pay raise with the upgrade and the East attrition.

and your points are all valid except the lack of giving the east any additonal senority for the attrition they brought with them.

would I or would I not be a captain quicker with or without the NIC//
yes or no?

 

[CallawayGolf]

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yes waste of breath here... I'm all for a solution but that doesn't seem possible now does it.. hardened positions and all.


so pay up and we will resolve this in court many years down the line.

In the meantime I will enjoy my 45 percent pay raise with the upgrade and the East attrition.

and your points are all valid except the lack of giving the east any additonal senority for the attrition they brought with them.

would I or would I not be a captain quicker with or without the NIC//
yes or no?

I take it you are not a Captain yet so the 45% raise is still unfulfilled at this point. On the other hand, you could have, at a minimum, taken the NIC+Kirby three years ago and had about a 30% raise with money in the bank long ago. What's that worth? $60-100K? If the NIC causes a 1-2 year delay in getting the left seat, then you would still have been ahead accepting the NIC in 2007. With the NIC accepted and a unified pilot group, you may have gotten more than 30% for the right seat. Instead you chose to fight against a phantom issue and have no money to show for it. Depending on the outcome of the DJ, perhaps you never will.

 

[Crzipilot]

Or in some cases, only a 7k difference in pay / year, equating to 21k over 3 years, minus taxes. This all for delaying an upgrade for up to 5 years. Which results in a 30-40k increase in year one. Uhmmm....ya. No thanks Nic....

 

[CactusPilot1]

So, are you saying the lack of growth, furloughs, downgrades and loss of your other crew base on the West are because of the East? Kind of like catching the flu from someone in the office?

You may be on to something there. I have often thought over the years that USAirways might be "snake bit". Possibly some "Voodoo curse".

It would have been nice, had hooking up with the West somehow improved the situation, unfortunately it seems to have just made things worse.

seajay

CJ,

US Air was in a lot worse situation than HP in 2005. We had 6-7 year upgrades, hiring hundreds of pilots to the stagnation we face today. It is of no coincidence that priorities shifted East.

I think someone benefited, it was not the West or ALPA.

 

[exB717Flyer]

yes waste of breath here... I'm all for a solution but that doesn't seem possible now does it.. hardened positions and all.

You're right. Once USAPA was formed all possibility for compromise was over. The East shot itself in the nose to spite its face.

so pay up and we will resolve this in court many years down the line.

Okay, we will. Of course there's a way to avoid the courts completely: abide by the arbitrated seniority list. You know, the one both sides agreed to beforehand. The one where there's no caveat allowed just because one side might not think it's fair.

and your points are all valid except the lack of giving the east any additonal senority for the attrition they brought with them.

It's now 2011. The combined seniority list was decided by the arbitrator in 2007. Are you still trying to argue which way is "fair"? Hint: the East and West will never agree on what constitutes fair. That's why it ended up in arbitration. The East drew first blood and caused this dispute so cries for compromise are really cries for unilateral concessions.

would I or would I not be a captain quicker with or without the NIC//
yes or no?

Irrelevant. As Nicolau stated, the East had more to gain from the merger than the West. You've been enjoying that gain at the West's expense for six years now. But that's not enough for you, is it?

 

[Zone5]

CJ,

US Air was in a lot worse situation than HP in 2005. We had 6-7 year upgrades, hiring hundreds of pilots to the stagnation we face today. It is of no coincidence that priorities shifted East.

I think someone benefited, it was not the West or ALPA.

So you are saying that "Dougie" shifted priorities East and the result is the base closure, furloughs and stagnation currently being borne by the West? Team Tempe "sacrificed" the go go roaring profitability of the West to "save" the East. Interesting!

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

So you are saying that "Dougie" shifted priorities East and the result is the base closure, furloughs and stagnation currently being borne by the West?

In one sense yes although it wasn't the East pilots that were the root of the problem. At HP's cost structure they could compete with primarily WN out west but the merger brought East's high costs to the party which made competing with WN in LAS/PHX and a lot of western routes much harder and even impossible in some cases. So management did what it had to do to compete - shift flying to the higher revenue eastern part of the country and shrink the airline to the minimum allowed by the TA (which leaves the East with at least 15 more planes than the fleet minimum).

Jim

 

[crazystnic]

You're right. Once USAPA was formed all possibility for compromise was over. The East shot itself in the nose to spite its face.

Okay, we will. Of course there's a way to avoid the courts completely: abide by the arbitrated seniority list. You know, the one both sides agreed to beforehand. The one where there's no caveat allowed just because one side might not think it's fair.



It's now 2011. The combined seniority list was decided by the arbitrator in 2007. Are you still trying to argue which way is "fair"? Hint: the East and West will never agree on what constitutes fair. That's why it ended up in arbitration. The East drew first blood and caused this dispute so cries for compromise are really cries for unilateral concessions.



Irrelevant. As Nicolau stated, the East had more to gain from the merger than the West. You've been enjoying that gain at the West's expense for six years now. But that's not enough for you, is it?

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yeah I knew you wouldn't answer a basic question... the answer is not irrelevant... The upgrade would be delayed by many years for FO's on the east using the NIC.

 

[Freighterguynow]

At HP's cost structure they could compete with primarily WN out west but the merger brought East's high costs to the party which made competing with WN in LAS/PHX and a lot of western routes much harder and even impossible in some cases.

So what are these higher costs you speak of Jim? Because we need to de-ice in PHL are we now doing so in PHX? No.

The seat mile cost between a and b is the same as it ever was, the company merely produces an average for wall street.

The price of fuel isn't $35 anymore - the West was built on that and doesn't work on $100.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You're right. Once USAPA was formed all possibility for compromise was over. The East shot itself in the nose to spite its face.

Well, yeah. Probably right on that. At least the part about compromise.

What was the probability of compromise before USAPA was formed? Do we remember those days? I do.

Rice Committee, Blue Ribbon Commission, Wye River. Lot's of compromises from the west profferred there, wasn't there? Why didn't we just take those generous compromises and forget about USAPA?

Oh, that's right. There were no compromises forthcoming from the west despite ALPA's best efforts to secure them.

Now...does that give you any inkling why there is a USAPA?

"Shot itself in the nose to spite its face." Notwithstanding the amusing mixed metaphor, "shot itself in the face" still remains to be seen. There was no other choice. We had enough of ALPAs decades of nonsense even before this matter appeared. ALPA could not solve it, so what did we have to lose?

 

[CactusPilot1]

So you are saying that "Dougie" shifted priorities East and the result is the base closure, furloughs and stagnation currently being borne by the West? Team Tempe "sacrificed" the go go roaring profitability of the West to "save" the East. Interesting!

seajay

What was US Air's exit strategy to exit certain bankruptcy prior to Parker coming to the rescue?

I can tell you my life was a lot better before Dougie cast the lifeline out. He drug the carcass to Tempe with some expectation that he had become the CEO of a "Legacy" carrier. Instead, he is the CEO of big friggin mess almost 6 years later and profiting from our misery.

To make things better, an association is formed to cheat a process rather than representing ALL the pilots as a bargaining agent. Then it sues the pilots it is elected to represent and you wonder why Leonidas has so much support.

Big mistake suing our pilots and trying to cheat an agreed process of seniority integration.

Shame!

 

[prechilill]

...So management did what it had to do to compete - shift flying to the higher revenue eastern part of the country and shrink the airline to the minimum allowed by the TA (which leaves the East with at least 15 more planes than the fleet minimum).

Jim

And added more than 400 active east pilots flying since the PID.

 

[RSVP767]

In case you aren’t familiar with the award, I’ll list the points and you can explain where the arbitrator wasn’t using reason and equity:
1. No displacement from current position
2. No furlough pilot may bump/displace an active pilot
3. Protecting pilots in training for a new position
4. Protecting the A330 & B767 positions for the east
5. Accounting for replacement AC rather than new AC
6. Allocation of EMB-190 positions per the earlier Eischen Award

Nicolau could just have easily rendered a DOH list incorporating the very same reasonable and equitable points you mention. So......DOH would be just as fair as the NIC.