US Pilots Labor Discussion

[icehead]

Of which more than a third of East attrition is out of the right seat, thereby valueless.

So out of a hundred pilots, 20 West - all capt. 80 East, 55 of whom are capts and 25 are F/Os. The ratio is 20/55 = 36%. Look at the Nicolau. Miraculously that's what the Nicolau seniority list looks like.

looking at the active East list I count about 310 F/O's who are at or below seniority number 1800 give or take a few. Excluding the E190 we have Captains up to roughly 2100. It's rather surprising, some F/O's on the A330 could hold Captain on the B767. The number one A330 F/O is around 200 or so. So I suppose depending on where you are specifically on theoretical lists you could say that an F/O leaving is of no value to you but not to all. You must be rather senior. This airline is not growing it's shrinking. There was an Excel seniority prediction tool that provided accurate career projections to retirement after the Nic came out but it was only good till age 60. Many pilots have left since then so it would have to be revised to verify the individual impact when pilots leave. It should be clear to anyone however that the Nic award insures a significant exponential effect on the West when the East pilots leave.

 

[BoeingBoy]

some F/O's on the A330 could hold Captain on the B767.

That big a difference is either for QOL or probably more likely those who have been out on medical long enough that they're required to fly FO for a period of time (I think it's 6 months).

So I suppose depending on where you are specifically on theoretical lists you could say that an F/O leaving is of no value to you but not to all.

While I didn't say that, I think someone in the middle of the list creates less movement when they leave than when someone at/near the top of the list leaves. A 330 captain leaving could create a vacancy in the 76I, which could create a vacancy on the 76D which could create a vacancy on the A320 which could create a vacancy on the 737 capt etc, etc, etc. But a senior A320 FO only leaves that vacancy, which when filled could create a vacancy on the 737FO, etc. The "trickle down" changes are a lot less when a FO leaves than when a senior captain leaves.

There was an Excel seniority prediction tool that provided accurate career projections to retirement after the Nic came out but it was only good till age 60. Many pilots have left since then so it would have to be revised to verify the individual impact when pilots leave. It should be clear to anyone however that the Nic award insures a significant exponential effect on the West when the East pilots leave.

It would depend on the assumptions used. As I said before and above, East pilots could retire and have little or a lot of effect on upward movement. For the near term, the East has exponentially more pilots on medical than the West - vacancies resulting form them leaving could have already been filled so their change to retired status would leave no vacancy behind. Then you get into the unknowns of what the airline is doing in the future - shrinking, static, or growing. So the assumptions used can have a dramatic effect on the result.

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

looking at the active East list I count about 310 F/O's who are at or below seniority number 1800 give or take a few. Excluding the E190 we have Captains up to roughly 2100. It's rather surprising, some F/O's on the A330 could hold Captain on the B767. The number one A330 F/O is around 200 or so. So I suppose depending on where you are specifically on theoretical lists you could say that an F/O leaving is of no value to you but not to all. You must be rather senior. This airline is not growing it's shrinking. There was an Excel seniority prediction tool that provided accurate career projections to retirement after the Nic came out but it was only good till age 60. Many pilots have left since then so it would have to be revised to verify the individual impact when pilots leave. It should be clear to anyone however that the Nic award insures a significant exponential effect on the West when the East pilots leave.

This month 38 A330 f/o's senior to 7I CAPT 1 flying rt seat for MED return! MM! Not to mention A330 f/o's senior to AB CAPT!

 

[Barrister]

A good start would be picking one story and sticking to it. Either ALPA is scum for making all those concessions or they get credit for keeping US alive. You don't get to blame ALPA for the concessions then take credit for the concessions that kept US alive.

Jim

Only you would make such such a non-sensical statement. Apples and bowling balls Einstein.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[767jetz]

Proof of what sir? You are almost at 12000 posts and did not provide proof of any of your opines.

Let's do some simple math, shall we?

BB has 11950 posts in about 87 months. (Thats 7 years, 3 months, junior.) Which equals 137 or so posts per month.

You have 400 posts in 3 months. Which equals 133 or so posts per month.

Yeah, big difference.

Same average, yet you spout nothing by useless links, unsubstantiated lies, and ancient history that has nothing to do with your failed DOH cram down, west job theft, or your pathetic LOA93 pay rates. And don't forget your never ending excuses, even though you are psrt of a group who protects a person who preys on young girls.

At least BB contributes to a conversation and backs his claims up with verifiable facts, minus the personal attacks.

You were an alpa rep. You are an alpa shill. The proof is in your posts.

Pot/kettle

You are a USAPA rep and shill. No proof necessary other than your behavior here.

(And no, I do not work for ALPA at any level. Volunteered for Family Awareness for a little while in the past. Never got a dime or a trip drop for it. I don't suppose you want to prove your work on that accusation either? I didn't think so.)

 

[Phoenix]

Only you would make such such a non-sensical statement. Apples and bowling balls Einstein.

NICDOA
NPJB

That's Mr. Einstein (Ret.) to you buster. Sheezsh, the decorum around here.....

 

[Zone5]

While I didn't say that, I think someone in the middle of the list creates less movement when they leave than when someone at/near the top of the list leaves. A 330 captain leaving could create a vacancy in the 76I, which could create a vacancy on the 76D which could create a vacancy on the A320 which could create a vacancy on the 737 capt etc, etc, etc. But a senior A320 FO only leaves that vacancy, which when filled could create a vacancy on the 737FO, etc. The "trickle down" changes are a lot less when a FO leaves than when a senior captain leaves.

Jim

It is rather complicated on the East. For instance, based on the last East permanent bid, May 2011, there are 360 widebody F/O's, including ALL of the CLT 330 F/O's, who have the seniority to hold 320 or 737 Captain. These are relatively senior pilots whose departure through attrition could theoretically cause a lot of movement throughout the system, including from narrowbody Captain to those widebody F/O seats. Clearly quality of life is a major factor for many and you better believe they are not interested in seeing West pilots, they consider junior to them, bid in on top of them.

seajay

 

[nic4us]

How ironic that while accepting all those donations you have single-handedly done more to bury the Nic award than USAPA: except maybeNic4 but he's a civilian in all this.

I am not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Metroyet]

I think it would be safe to say that the outcome of a DFR-II is uncertain.

seajay

Sure!! Okay Lee!

 

[mikey60]

And lousy grammer..don't forget that Traitor.

Driver B)

Maybe you can teach english 101 in your next career, hope its just around the corner.

 

[mikey60]

You guys crack me up. You never think things through.

Is Nicolau dead or not?

If Nicolau is dead why would you want to fragment? It removes about 1500 west guys as furlough fodder for the east.
If we fragment it remove about $3 million in dues money that helps fund the cost of a $10 million union. How are you going to pay the difference?

You guys got an extra $2 million burning a hole in your empty pockets to pay for another merger?

If you merge with AMR, DAL or UAL they are all the bigger group. You all have been telling us that the majority rules and they get to decide what the integration should be. Right! So your C&BL demand DOH. How did that demand work out last time with the arbitrator? So when it goes to arbitration again except this time you have no ability to compromise, any guesses how that ends up? Plus you have such great negotiators.

WB pilots go to the top of the list. How many WB pilots do the other airlines have compared to the east? Could be the east pilots start at around 1500 down the list.

Yep sure sounds like a good idea to me. Fragment and delay your new contract another couple years. How many retire on LOA 93 wages in the next 3 years?

Maybe the Nicolau is not as dead as you all keep telling yourself and fragmentation is the only way you get out of final and binding arbitration.

I suggest that you go to the next crew news and start demanding that from Parker. Better yet get that all powerful union to force Parker to fragment. What's that you say usapa has no leverage.

This is probably the dumbest statement I have ever read on this forum. If this is how your mind puts thoughts together I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with you. I also feel you are the one who should have a talk with Mr. Parker, a long one.

 

[RSVP767]

A sizable portion of those are from post merger expansion brought you by America West Holdings . Above the 9 330s and 10 767s you brought to the merger, fully a third of the additional 330 and 757 seats don't belong to the East.

Hello? There has been no merger expansion to date. Both sides are within one or two hulls of min fleet. Any new aircraft have been replacement aircraft. The company could have replaced East 737's with the new 321's and replaced West 737's with the 330's........but they didn't! Sorry.

I made 105k plus last year and laid over in domicile every trip. The entire month of July I had 33 hour layovers at home. Did another 33 hour this month at home. Compare that to any 330 or 767 F/O. I bet I made more plus was gone half the time. (I get paid for cancellations.)

Ok, let's compare.....I made $104K plus last year and worked all of 44 days as a 75/76 reserve F/O (nine days in December alone. I know.....tough month). That's right....I had 321 days off at home (I live in base). I'm shooting for 36 days of work this year (one nice 3 day trip to Europe each month and I'm good) but at 330 rates thanks to the recent bids (should be around $117k).

Then why do I see so many East F/Os in uniforms acquired after the merger wearing four stripes? I'd say there's quite a complex out on the East about being a captain. You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats.

You see many East F/O's in four stripe jackets because they had been Captains already, and at the time of the new uniform purchase, expected to be back in the left seat in relatively short order given the retirement schedule going forward. Then the NIC abomination came out and the age 60 rule change. If I had know it would be this long I would have purchased the new jacket with three stripes. I really don't give a damn how many stripes are on my jacket. I don't need to compensate for other areas. And we really don't want your West captain seat, or any West seat for that matter.

 

[mikey60]

A sizable portion of those are from post merger expansion brought you by America West Holdings. Above the 9 330s and 10 767s you brought to the merger, fully a third of the additional 330 and 757 seats don't belong to the East.

I made 105k plus last year and laid over in domicile every trip. The entire month of July I had 33 hour layovers at home. Did another 33 hour this month at home. Compare that to any 330 or 767 F/O. I bet I made more plus was gone half the time. (I get paid for cancellations.)

Yes. That's the theft which you Easties openly bragged about. Now, however, you're getting it at the price of LOA93 ad infintim. Go for it. Thanks for subsidizing my future.

Then why do I see so many East F/Os in uniforms acquired after the merger wearing four stripes? I'd say there's quite a complex out on the East about being a captain. You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats.

a. Who cares, were flying them.

b. 105k wo I haven't made that much in 25 or so years.......I MADE MORE.

c. It will be at its best when new hires start checking out.


d. Get used to it , your gonna' see a lot more of them.

 

[mikey60]

I looked at the east seniority list, as of March 2011, on wings the other day. The number one fo is on page one of the seniority list. Wow. I guess to some people it obviously isn't about the left seat.

IF that IS H.D. that you speak of, no he doesnt care and is finanically independent.

 

[nic4us]

This is probably the dumbest statement I have ever read on this forum.

Maybe that is because, you obviously do not proofread your own post.