US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

I looked at the east seniority list, as of March 2011, on wings the other day. The number one fo is on page one of the seniority list. Wow. I guess to some people it obviously isn't about the left seat.

Obviously! As it's that persons choice.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm not very smart, so if you could explain to me how to "discount attrition that doesn't leave a vacancy", I would appreciate it.

If you were never furloughed, you've seen it happen twice - between 1991 and 1996/7 and again from 2002 to 2006/7. How much attrition was there during those years without a single recall or new hire? Next there's the attrition from the right seat which doesn't leave a captains vacancy (just as there were retirements from the furloughed during those two periods of stagnation).Then there's those that retire from long term medical - a pilot could retire in 2013 but his vacancy was filled in 2008 when he went out on medical, thus no new vacancy when he/her moves from medical to retired status. the three explain why you can't just count future retirements for a given year and say that there will be that many vacancies created by attrition.

I would assume that there are East pilots who either don't want to take anything from the West or get anything the West has. There are probably a small minority of East pilots who think the Nic award was fair. But the majority of East pilots elected USAPA as CBA to get what it promised - as close to a DOH integration as it could get.

Jim

 

[jetjok1]

I have a fair and equitable solution that will work under both times of growth and reduction.

We simply use the Nicolau award.

I have to tell you. I've been mostly a sidelines lurker viewing this forum simply as amusement and, occasionally, some insight in the going's on in the company. Having said that, it would reflect on how much participation I have in my union activities. I have said from the beginning that I voted Alpa out, but, I've NEVER said that Usapa was the answer. I just knew that Alpa was no longer a union that had our best interests at heart. Even though I'm not a big participant in union activities, I do pay my dues, I do vote and I do follow their moves. What I'm seeing happening now is most disturbing and I think we need to look at what's coming down the pipe in the following days/months.........IMHO, we WILL LOSE Loa93 (I've always thought that), we have union leaders that can't even get along to the point of going to blows and are on their own agenda (i've believed that for some time now), and we can't seem to even come together to figure out where we need to plant our arses!!! for meetings and the like. Really now, this union is operating like a bunch of Washington politicians who need to be looking at campaign reform (for example) and what are they discussing.....Abortion issues!!! GMAFB. This union is about to lose my support. I've lost confidence in them and I"m rethinking my position. I have always been of the mindset that when you make the decision to go to arbitration......you better be prepared for the answer/outcome. I wasn't happy with it, I feel for the right seat guys and our upside down career continuing to go backwards but i would have lived with it. I've never felt the West controlled that outcome. We simply shot ourselves in the foot. Now, though, we are headed for destruction. I feel we can still control our future if we do the right thing........which is not what we are doing now nor do I see in the near future. We need to think about what is the right and just thing to do and move on..........or we will be out on the streets. For me, my life goes on.... fortunately and by the grace of God, i'm set. But a lot of you folks are not and heading down this road, imo, doesn't bode well for any of us. This union is self destructing.

 

[Zone5]

If you were never furloughed, you've seen it happen twice - between 1991 and 1996/7 and again from 2002 to 2006/7. How much attrition was there during those years without a single recall or new hire? Next there's the attrition from the right seat which doesn't leave a captains vacancy (just as there were retirements from the furloughed during those two periods of stagnation).Then there's those that retire from long term medical - a pilot could retire in 2013 but his vacancy was filled in 2008 when he went out on medical, thus no new vacancy when he/her moves from medical to retired status. the three explain why you can't just count future retirements for a given year and say that there will be that many vacancies created by attrition.

I would assume that there are East pilots who either don't want to take anything from the West or get anything the West has. There are probably a small minority of East pilots who think the Nic award was fair. But the majority of East pilots elected USAPA as CBA to get what it promised - as close to a DOH integration as it could get.

Jim

OK, I see where you are coming from with the "attrition that doesn't create a vacancy". "How much attrition was there during those years without a single recall or new hire?" Hell, I don't know Jim, some? a lot? I suspect that changes in the contract AKA LOA-93 accounts for a bunch of it along with parking aircraft and handing over flying to the RJ's. Thanks again ALPA and management, I'm sure it was for my own good, I'm just not smart enough to realize it! It's called stagnation and the East remembers it well.

I still don't get where this "attrition off the F/O list has no value" comes from. If an East pilot leaves the line, in any seat, an East pilot should get that job. I don't know why the number one F/O in PHL on the 75/76, who could be a block holding Captain on it, chooses to bid what he does. It's not any of my business and I'm sure he has his reasons. So be it, but to say that his spot has no value is only correct to those who suffer from "Captainitis". Not to mention how the bottom 75/76 Captain in PHL feels about it. Pilots who are not active due to LTD; some come back, some don't, so what. When an East pilot leaves the active list, they should be replaced by an East pilot. Regardless of all the ratios, percentages and endless number crunching that goes on by both sides of the argument, which by the way, as an exercise in separating the fly-poop from the pepper, only servers to confuse the issue.

I would say that there are a majority of pilots on the East who do not want to "take" anything from the West. As far as East pilots who think the Nic is fair, outside of a few "long suffering" former PSA commuters, I think you would be hard pressed to find many of them. OK, you can count however many ALPA "I got mine" types there might be on the widebody, who don't even have a dog in the NIC hunt, if you want.

One thing is for sure though, a majority of USAirways pilots voted to toss ALPA off the property, for a variety of reasons. As was their right.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

I still don't get where this "attrition off the F/O list has no value" comes from.

Because you're using that as a justification to take West captain jobs, 99%+ of which attrition is out of the captain seat. Even under the East contract, WB f/o is not the same as NB Capt. Plus, you have very few F/O WB positions as compared to NB captain positions.

 

[sumadarson]

I have to tell you. I've been mostly a sidelines lurker viewing this forum simply as amusement and, occasionally, some insight in the going's on in the company. Having said that, it would reflect on how much participation I have in my union activities. I have said from the beginning that I voted Alpa out, but, I've NEVER said that Usapa was the answer. I just knew that Alpa was no longer a union that had our best interests at heart. Even though I'm not a big participant in union activities, I do pay my dues, I do vote and I do follow their moves. What I'm seeing happening now is most disturbing and I think we need to look at what's coming down the pipe in the following days/months.........IMHO, we WILL LOSE Loa93 (I've always thought that), we have union leaders that can't even get along to the point of going to blows and are on their own agenda (i've believed that for some time now), and we can't seem to even come together to figure out where we need to plant our arses!!! for meetings and the like. Really now, this union is operating like a bunch of Washington politicians who need to be looking at campaign reform (for example) and what are they discussing.....Abortion issues!!! GMAFB. This union is about to lose my support. I've lost confidence in them and I"m rethinking my position. I have always been of the mindset that when you make the decision to go to arbitration......you better be prepared for the answer/outcome. I wasn't happy with it, I feel for the right seat guys and our upside down career continuing to go backwards but i would have lived with it. I've never felt the West controlled that outcome. We simply shot ourselves in the foot. Now, though, we are headed for destruction. I feel we can still control our future if we do the right thing........which is not what we are doing now nor do I see in the near future. We need to think about what is the right and just thing to do and move on..........or we will be out on the streets. For me, my life goes on.... fortunately and by the grace of God, i'm set. But a lot of you folks are not and heading down this road, imo, doesn't bode well for any of us. This union is self destructing.

Checked the history of your posts. What kind of syrup do you like with your waffles?

jetjokpost

 

[Zone5]

A sizable portion of those are from post merger expansion brought you by America West Holdings. Above the 9 330s and 10 767s you brought to the merger, fully a third of the additional 330 and 757 seats don't belong to the East.

I made 105k plus last year and laid over in domicile every trip. The entire month of July I had 33 hour layovers at home. Did another 33 hour this month at home. Compare that to any 330 or 767 F/O. I bet I made more plus was gone half the time. (I get paid for cancellations.)

Yes. That's the theft which you Easties openly bragged about. Now, however, you're getting it at the price of LOA93 ad infintim. Go for it. Thanks for subsidizing my future.

Then why do I see so many East F/Os in uniforms acquired after the merger wearing four stripes? I'd say there's quite a complex out on the East about being a captain. You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats.

I don't know what the exact numbers are or what you consider "sizable" but whatever the number, if they were post merger growth aircraft they should be addressed as such in the JCBA and made available to bid in accordance with the terms of the JCBA.

As far as equipment pay is concerned, I was referring to book rates, nothing more. I am glad that you are making whatever you can, have a good quality of life and have wisely decided to live in base. Good for you.

I'm not sure where you are going with this "theft" thing regarding the 190. Last time I checked some West pilots bid the aircraft and some didn't. Like the crusty old Captain on my first IOE many years ago said, "flying is easy, bidding is hard!"

It is my understanding that the company uniform policy allows "former" Captains to wear four stripes on their uniform jackets, not the hat or the epaulets though, or wings. At some point they earned those stripes, got designated as a PIC and flew the line as a Captain. I don't know why you have a problem with that, I don't. I do kind of wonder about the "leather jacket" types though. Frustrated wannabe bomber pilots maybe.

"You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats." I have no "DOH campaign" it is my understanding that USAPA has some concerns regarding that issue. I can assure you that I have no design on West Captains jobs whatsoever.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

I don't know what the exact numbers are or what you consider "sizable" but whatever the number, if they were post merger growth aircraft they should be addressed as such in the JCBA and made available to bid in accordance with the terms of the JCBA.

It was hashed out in the Nicolau arbitration. Both sides presented expert testimony. It's already been addressed in the Nicolau Award, yet your union conveniently wants to steal it from the West. How? By moving the PID date in constructing their DOH list with the phony C&Rs.

As far as equipment pay is concerned, I was referring to book rates, nothing more.

Sure. Sounds innocent enough, but it's far from the true picture, isn't it?

I'm not sure where you are going with this "theft" thing regarding the 190.

I didn't mention the 190s. I'm talking about the 330s and 757s added after the merger to which we are entitled to that growth flying. You're squatting on property that isn't yours.

Last time I checked some West pilots bid the aircraft and some didn't.

They were furloughed out of seniority. It's wrong and they're having to do what they have to in an incredibly difficult job market. The good news for them is that once a JCBA gets implemented with the Nic, they'll be able to cross straight over to captain.

It is my understanding that the company uniform policy allows "former" Captains to wear four stripes on their uniform jackets, not the hat or the epaulets though, or wings. At some point they earned those stripes, got designated as a PIC and flew the line as a Captain. I don't know why you have a problem with that, I don't.

They're not captains. They were captains, but for whatever reason having a fourth stripe on the sleeve is important to them, even when they get on the airplane and sit in the right seat. Weird.

"You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats." I have no "DOH campaign" it is my understanding that USAPA has some concerns regarding that issue. I can assure you that I have no design on West Captains jobs whatsoever.

seajay

Well, then you need to wake up because your ignorance is going to keep you mired in LOA93 for a long time. USAPA's DOH is a clear breach of its duty to fairly represent. Nobody is going to touch the proposal which repudiates a binding arbitration and it generated from the delusional logic of the East that its a fair proposal. It's theft on its face, it's theft in its workings. Nobody but the East buys it.

 

[767jetz]

Well said. And thanks for pointing out that the West attrition accounts for only 20% (or 1/5) of the total attrition while the East brings 80% of the total attrition.

And many of those retirements come from the right seat or a long term leave, creating no vacancies in captain seats. Which brings us back to the 2/3 number. Remember, just about all of the west attrition vacates a captain seat.

 

[Zone5]

Because you're using that as a justification to take West captain jobs, 99%+ of which attrition is out of the captain seat. Even under the East contract, WB f/o is not the same as NB Capt. Plus, you have very few F/O WB positions as compared to NB captain positions.

What! are you talking about? I have never tried to "justify" taking ANY West Captains jobs, ever. I have always said that West attrition belongs to the West, they are yours, keep them forever, please.

You are correct about one thing though, under the East contract, widebody F/O pays better than narrowbody EMB-190 Captain. Definitely not the same thing.

I also happen to think that NO mainline Captain should be paid less than ANY F/O. Then again, if I was in charge, lots of things would be different.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

And many of those retirements come from the right seat or a long term leave, creating no vacancies in captain seats. Which brings us back to the 2/3 number. Remember, just about all of the west attrition vacates a captain seat.

Which brings us back to the ratio of integration used by Nicolau.

 

[767jetz]

I have to tell you. I've been mostly a sidelines lurker viewing this forum simply as amusement and, occasionally, some insight in the going's on in the company. Having said that, it would reflect on how much participation I have in my union activities. I have said from the beginning that I voted Alpa out, but, I've NEVER said that Usapa was the answer. I just knew that Alpa was no longer a union that had our best interests at heart. Even though I'm not a big participant in union activities, I do pay my dues, I do vote and I do follow their moves. What I'm seeing happening now is most disturbing and I think we need to look at what's coming down the pipe in the following days/months.........IMHO, we WILL LOSE Loa93 (I've always thought that), we have union leaders that can't even get along to the point of going to blows and are on their own agenda (i've believed that for some time now), and we can't seem to even come together to figure out where we need to plant our arses!!! for meetings and the like. Really now, this union is operating like a bunch of Washington politicians who need to be looking at campaign reform (for example) and what are they discussing.....Abortion issues!!! GMAFB. This union is about to lose my support. I've lost confidence in them and I"m rethinking my position. I have always been of the mindset that when you make the decision to go to arbitration......you better be prepared for the answer/outcome. I wasn't happy with it, I feel for the right seat guys and our upside down career continuing to go backwards but i would have lived with it. I've never felt the West controlled that outcome. We simply shot ourselves in the foot. Now, though, we are headed for destruction. I feel we can still control our future if we do the right thing........which is not what we are doing now nor do I see in the near future. We need to think about what is the right and just thing to do and move on..........or we will be out on the streets. For me, my life goes on.... fortunately and by the grace of God, i'm set. But a lot of you folks are not and heading down this road, imo, doesn't bode well for any of us. This union is self destructing.

I commend you for speaking your mind. Be prepared to feel the wrath of the lynch mob on this site for daring to speak against them.

 

[Phoenix]

Well said. And thanks for pointing out that the West attrition accounts for only 20% (or 1/5) of the total attrition while the East brings 80% of the total attrition.

Yeah, but according to the West, 95% of the East pilots that are retiring are now sitting reserve on the E190 as FOs. The other 5% are sitting reserve on the 73... so there will be no movement from retirements.

 

[767jetz]

Checked the history of your posts. What kind of syrup do you like with your waffles?

jetjokpost

This union is about to lose my support. I've lost confidence in them and I"m rethinking my position.

Heaven forbid a person rethinks their position. USAPA hates when a person thinks for themselves and draws their own conclusion.

jetjok1, as I said... brace yourself.

 

[Freighterguynow]

They were furloughed out of seniority. It's wrong and they're having to do what they have to in an incredibly difficult job market. The good news for them is that once a JCBA gets implemented with the Nic, they'll be able to cross straight over to captain.

How ironic that while accepting all those donations you have single-handedly done more to bury the Nic award than USAPA: except maybe Nic4 but he's a civilian in all this.

Bravo - and thanks!

He who has eyes let him see ...

AMR Board May Be Near Decision on Eagle Sale, Union Says

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-11/amr-board-may-be-near-decision-on-eagle-divestiture-union-says.html?cmpid=yhoo