US Pilots Labor Discussion

[RSVP767]

You're defining movement as a combination of growth and attrition, they are not the same thing. I think 1/3 of growth is reasonable. Based on the projected retirement numbers, 1/5 of attrition would be closer to the number for the West. I don't expect the West to want anything they never had in the first place. I know I don't want or expect any movement based on West attrition, I wouldn't really. I think "Dougie" has made it pretty clear that the company has close to zero plans for growth, however, I would even vote for the West keeping all growth that occurs out West.

All this stuff is not rocket science, it's pretty simple mathematics to come up with the specific ratios, it should have been adequately addressed to everyone's satisfaction from the get go, it still could be.

"how many times has it been posted that if the West pilots just wait x years they'll inherit the airline?" Lots of times, I would suppose. Because it's true.

seajay

Well said. And thanks for pointing out that the West attrition accounts for only 20% (or 1/5) of the total attrition while the East brings 80% of the total attrition.

 

[exB717Flyer]

And thanks for pointing out that the West attrition accounts for only 20% (or 1/5) of the total attrition while the East brings 80% of the total attrition.

Wow, I had no idea that was the case. Somebody tell George Nicolau! Oh, you mean he was told but decided other issues overrode that attrition? Now I get it. Phew. I guess there's a reason something as important as seniority list integration isn't left to just one side to decide. ooops, did I say that out loud?

 

[Zone5]

There has been a lot of talk about how the East want's the West to be "furlough fodder" in the event that the company decides to shrink again. How about separating the seniority list into West and East (pre-merger components) to be used only in the event of a future furlough. Cuts in East flying would come out of the East list and cuts in the West flying would come out of the West list. New hires would go first of course.

Like I said, it's not rocket science.

seajay

 

[nic4us]

There has been a lot of talk about how the East want's the West to be "furlough fodder" in the event that the company decides to shrink again. How about separating the seniority list into West and East (pre-merger components) to be used only in the event of a future furlough. Cuts in East flying would come out of the East list and cuts in the West flying would come out of the West list. New hires would go first of course.

Like I said, it's not rocket science.

seajay

I have a fair and equitable solution that will work under both times of growth and reduction.

We simply use the Nicolau award.

 

[Zone5]

Wow, I had no idea that was the case. Somebody tell George Nicolau! Oh, you mean he was told but decided other issues overrode that attrition? Now I get it. Phew. I guess there's a reason something as important as seniority list integration isn't left to just one side to decide. ooops, did I say that out loud?

I have no idea why George Nicolau thought that the East attrition was of so little value. Just goes to show why so many on the East think the NIC is not "fair and equitable". Outside of the widebody international flying, attrition is arguably the most valuable possession brought to the merger by the East. To not accurately account for its value was wrong.

I suspect that's why ALPA changed its "new" merger policy to incorporate the use of a panel of three arbitrators as the standard for their policy. Not a bad idea, kind of keeps the process from going "off the reservation". Personally, I would support a new "clean sheet of paper" arbitration panel with three voting "unbiased" arbitrators. I would prefer if both sides could park their egos, lawyers and nads at the door and reach an acceptable agreement amongst ourselves though.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Zone5,

Don't forget to discount attrition that doesn't leave a vacancy - that brings it closer to a 2:1 instead of a 4:1 ratio. All the theoretical solutions are just that - theoretical. What USAPA proposes isn't close to any of your suggestions plus USAPA made sure that there was no entity on the West side to negotiate with. USAPA's "solution" gives the East nearly all upward movement from attrition plus most of any growth while putting nearly all of any furloughs on the West. You're right - it doesn't take rocket science to see that USAPA's "solution" is really a transfer of attrition/growth from the West to the East pilots. What USAPA seeks is little different from what the petitions and threats of MC recalls sought - a DOH seniority integration with just enough crumbs of C&R's to withstand judicial review but give only minor protection to the West.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

I have a fair and equitable solution that will work under both times of growth and reduction.

We simply use the Nicolau award.

You are correct, it would work. Unfortunately, there are lots of pilots who don't agree with the way it would work.

That's why we find ourselves mired in WW-I style trench warfare. 4 million dollars poorer and waiting for the armistice agreement to be shoved up somebody's tailpipe. Who's tailpipe? At this point it's a matter of opinion, and opinions are like tailpipes, everybody has one and most of them stink. Just keep in mind that the WW-I armistice agreement was so one sided that it lead to WW-II.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

Well said. And thanks for pointing out that the West attrition accounts for only 20% (or 1/5) of the total attrition while the East brings 80% of the total attrition.

Of which more than a third of East attrition is out of the right seat, thereby valueless.

So out of a hundred pilots, 20 West - all capt. 80 East, 55 of whom are capts and 25 are F/Os. The ratio is 20/55 = 36%. Look at the Nicolau. Miraculously that's what the Nicolau seniority list looks like.

 

[Zone5]

Zone5,

Don't forget to discount attrition that doesn't leave a vacancy - that brings it closer to a 2:1 instead of a 4:1 ratio. All the theoretical solutions are just that - theoretical. What USAPA proposes isn't close to any of your suggestions plus USAPA made sure that there was no entity on the West side to negotiate with. As USAPA's "solution" does if give the East nearly all movement from attrition plus most of any growth. You're right - it doesn't take rocket science to see that USAPA's "solution" is really a transfer of attrition/growth from the West to the East pilots. What USAPA seeks is little different from what the petitions and threats of MC recalls sought - a DOH seniority integration with just enough crumbs of C&R's to withstand judicial review but give only minor protection to the West.

Jim

I'm not very smart, so if you could explain to me how to "discount attrition that doesn't leave a vacancy", I would appreciate it. Whether or not an attrition creates a vacancy, the attrition still belongs to the original owner, regardless of "value". If it generates no movement for some reason, so be it.

I'm far from being a USAPA cheerleader, if USAPA's "solution" is really a transfer of attrition/growth from the West to the East, then, that is just plain wrong and I would venture to say that a majority of the East would not support that position.

Like I said, attrition belongs to the owner, be it West or East and unfortunately the company has decided that growth is a bad thing, so to spend much time arguing over "growth",something that is virtually non-existent, is a red herring that just wastes bandwidth and time.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

Of which more than a third of East attrition is out of the right seat, thereby valueless.

So out of a hundred pilots, 20 West - all capt. 80 East, 55 of whom are capts and 25 are F/Os. The ratio is 20/55 = 36%. Look at the Nicolau. Miraculously that's what the Nicolau seniority list looks like.

Say what? Attrition out of the right seat has no value! Tell that to the pilots currently in training for F/O on the 330 and 75/76, both jobs that currently pay more than any F/O position on the West. Not to mention the 170 pilots who are now moving up to higher paying narrow body aircraft.

It's not just about being a captain. I guess when you have one pay rate and one crew base for all aircraft, it is all about moving to the left seat. Not so on the East.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

Say what? Attrition out of the right seat has no value! Tell that to the pilots currently in training for F/O on the 330 and 75/76, both jobs that currently pay more than any F/O position on the West.

A sizable portion of those are from post merger expansion brought you by America West Holdings. Above the 9 330s and 10 767s you brought to the merger, fully a third of the additional 330 and 757 seats don't belong to the East.

both jobs that currently pay more than any F/O position on the West.

I made 105k plus last year and laid over in domicile every trip. The entire month of July I had 33 hour layovers at home. Did another 33 hour this month at home. Compare that to any 330 or 767 F/O. I bet I made more plus was gone half the time. (I get paid for cancellations.)

Not to mention the 170 pilots who are now moving up to higher paying narrow body aircraft.

Yes. That's the theft which you Easties openly bragged about. Now, however, you're getting it at the price of LOA93 ad infintim. Go for it. Thanks for subsidizing my future.

It's not just about being a captain.

Then why do I see so many East F/Os in uniforms acquired after the merger wearing four stripes? I'd say there's quite a complex out on the East about being a captain. You centered your whole DOH campaign on taking West captain seats.

 

[N924PS]

And lousy grammer..don't forget that Traitor.

Driver B)

His "grammer" may be lousy, but so is your spelling!

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I looked at the east seniority list, as of March 2011, on wings the other day. The number one fo is on page one of the seniority list. Wow. I guess to some people it obviously isn't about the left seat.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Say what? Attrition out of the right seat has no value! Tell that to the pilots currently in training for F/O on the 330 and 75/76,

By the way, Nicolau gave you all of those positions that you brought to the merger. You didn't have 517 A330/76 captains. You had 517 caps and F/Os.

Still, I wouldn't trade line holding A320 F/O under the West contract with any F/O position or reserve Capt position under LOA93. The QOL is just too good, plus the numbers don't add up for widebody F/O under LOA93. Take out the deadheads, crap trip rigs, lack of cancellation pay and it's a different story.

I just did a four day worth 24plus that had 18 hours at home.

 

[A320 Driver]

His "grammer" may be lousy, but so is your spelling!

No Sir...I spelled it just like I wanted it.


Driver B)