US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Reed Richards]

Swan,

First, the 9th ruled Addington vs usapa was Not Ripe. Nothing more. They even say so in the beginning of the ruling.

Second, the company's DJ is not Addington vs usapa.

Third, the general concensus is she will dismiss. But, if she does not, it has nothing to do with what the 9th ruled in Addington. It has to do with the company's contractual obligations. Like I told you when the 9th ruled, the 9th left usapa free to negotiate, problem is the 9th did not mandate that the company has to set itself up for massive liability in colluding with usapa's seniority theft plan.

The West's legal braintrust does not know or speculate what an Arizona judge may or may not do. What the West's legal braintrust does know is if usapa and the company try to use any non-Nic list, we will sue and win. What is LOL funny is that the company's lawyer Siegel knows the West is right, Judge Silver knows we are right, I even suspect Seeham knows we are right, after all, we have a jury verdict to back it up.

You guys love grabbing on to a phrase and running with it ad nausuim. I guess the new one is " the 9th only ruled not ripe." Taken word for word of course it is true..but in a not so common PUBLISHED ruling the 9th set some land mines out for those that choose to come their way again with foolishness. Like I have said..do you think they have had a change of heart about 25 years of 9th decisions supporting the rights of unions to negotiate without interference from the courts? No, they have not..and they told us all just that in the comments accompanying the ruling. Silver, Seigel, Seham, and even Ben Grimm are real clear on that. (and Ben is not the sharpest tool in the shed)

Judge Silver indeed only cares about the exact ruling of not ripe, handed down eventually from SCOTUS. Why would she give a whit if the parties are stupid or smart enough to take appeals to the Ninth..having already been given the SFO decoder ring on union rights. She knows Addington is DOA. All your fantasy reincarnations with all the old stuff being recycled is…what…hang on…dismissed in the comments from the Ninth. They said, in your favorite line, you could sue on the product of a ratified contract……read not on the history of USAPA. I know, I know..you don’t read it that way..you read it as them telling you a sure win is in the bank, just waiting to be claimed.

You don’t give the Company lawyer enough credit. He could care less about east or west pilots..he is doing what that company wants…creating legal delays to prevent labor costs from rising. That’s it.

By the way, what are you going to say if Judge Silver does not dismiss..and simply grants the Company claim #3…exempting them from litigation if the Company does NOT use the Nic. Lots of winners on that one…Judge Silver does nothing more that reaffirm what the Ninth said…the union is FREE to negotiate. But I still say complete dismissal.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can anyone out there believe that the Pres. of a Company would make a statement like that. And what is more amazing that the board and stockholders havent raked him over the coals over it.

In the circumstances in which he said it, and the board/stockholders have nothing to complain about. There is no requirement that the CEO/Chairman (Kirby is president - try to keep up) tell a group of employees the truth. You do know that a disclaimer is now given at the start of each session, right?

Jim

 

[RSVP767]

What is LOL funny is that the company's lawyer Siegel knows the West is right, Judge Silver knows we are right, I even suspect Seeham knows we are right, after all, we have a jury verdict to back it up.

Now that's LOL funny!

 

[cleardirect]

Travelers have sought an alternative to ATL for decades. PI started to hub CLT in the 80s and it's grown every since. American tried to hub RDU, but it went bust. CLT DOES work with ATL and in a big way.

Easy to split...you take yours and split

Driver B)

Really! You think that you have any of this?

It all belongs to the company. There is no ours and yours.

But just to remind all you east guys. You are older than the west so it is you that will be splitting. SEEEE YA!

So travelers have been seeking an alternative for decades. So where is it? Could it be that there is no alternative? You merge DAL and LCC, CLT is redundant at best. An alternate for bad weather in ATL.

 

[nic4us]

If you are so sure of a win seems to me you would have accepted DOH years ago, and then you would have won your DFR, right. So the question is what are you afraid of?

Been paying attention for the last 5 years Luv?

How would the west have accepted DOH years ago? It is a non-starter in negotiations, so it will never make it to a tenative agreement for anybody to "accept".

The west's position has been, since the representation election, as first written by Freund, then the ST&K now Pollsinelli legal team, use anything other than the Nic, get sued, and lose.

What are we afraid of? Well it certainly is not a few years of fleet min block hour protection, especially with the way our fleet is being modernized.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You guys love grabbing on to a phrase and running with it ad nausuim.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black - you're the king of beating a few words/phrases to death.

"I guess the new one is " the 9th only ruled not ripe." Taken word for word of course it is true

So you berate them for saying something that you admit is true...

..but in a not so common PUBLISHED ruling the 9th set some land mines out for those that choose to come their way again with foolishness. Like I have said..do you think they have had a change of heart about 25 years of 9th decisions supporting the rights of unions to negotiate without interference from the courts? No, they have not..and they told us all just that in the comments accompanying the ruling. Silver, Seigel, Seham, and even Ben Grimm are real clear on that. (and Ben is not the sharpest tool in the shed)

Look who's taking a few words/phrases and running with them!

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Dupe post deleted by me

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

If you are so sure of a win seems to me you would have accepted DOH years ago, and then you would have won your DFR, right. So the question is what are you afraid of?

So if we had accepted the DOH screwing how would we have sued later?

Do you even think before you write?

If you had accepted what you agreed to in arbitration years ago we would not have to sue. usapa would not have to defend against a law suits. Why is Seham trying to dismiss the DJ? What are you afraid of? Let the court tell the company what usapa has been telling you. If you guys are so sure of your position go to trial and let the judge say it is not the Nicolau. What are you afraid of?

 

[Reed Richards]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black - you're the king of beating a few words/phrases to death.



So you berate them for saying something that you admit is true...



Look who's taking a few words/phrases and running with them!

Jim

Oh No....I've just been destroyed with "Matlok" logic. What was I thinking. I should have known that old oak tree hangs on to its leaves until spring! Oh wait..that Joe Peschi logic..never mind. I am defeated.

Just in case anyone has forgotten, here is what Jim thinks of his fellow pilots (when he is not digesting the intros to Crew News Videos)

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.
Jim

 

[nic4us]

By the way, what are you going to say if Judge Silver does not dismiss..and simply grants the Company claim #3…exempting them from litigation if the Company does NOT use the Nic. Lots of winners on that one…Judge Silver does nothing more that reaffirm what the Ninth said…the union is FREE to negotiate. But I still say complete dismissal.

RR

Never going to happen, but lets say it does. Judge Silver grants the company total immunity from any future course of action that it might take,(although we do not know what that would be, or how many laws it may or maynot break, talk about not ripe).

The company would then have no fear of a West lawsuit.

The West's position will be, use any non-Nic list and we are suing usapa for DFR, seeking an injunction, and any contract will be worthless. Oh, and, any potential merger partners would be given fair notice during their due diligence that the West pilot's would sue them under any integrations involving any non-Nic list. Just to throw a monkey wrench into any plans of the company dumping their problems down the line.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I do appreciate you keeping my suggestion to those like you and Nos who want to play the guilt by association game that they might want to think twice before doing so....there seems to be less of it (excepting you, Nos and a couple of others).

Jim

 

[doh nogo]

If you are so sure of a win seems to me you would have accepted DOH years ago, and then you would have won your DFR, right. So the question is what are you afraid of?

Nothing to be afraid of at all. It's not up to us to accept a DOH list. It's up to USAPA to produce a DOH list and a contract. Something they are unable to do.

It's all moot anyway since we will never see a contract or a DOH list from USAPA. Either the company will stand on Nic (since they know it is the only way to avoid the peril of a very expensive law suit) and we all get parked by the NMB, or USAPA gets the boot after losing the LOA93 pay grievance. Either way DOH will never see the light of day.

 

[nic4us]

The west will no longer have their satellite domiciles in CLT and PHL to make up for the piece of economic junk they brought to the merger.

The messenger.

Hey messenger,

Ever occur to you that the west might just take any pieces of what they bought in the merger with them?

I am thinking, a nice modern fleet of around 220 A320s 16 A330s, and KDCA for starters. What does that leave you with?

 

[sumadarson]

united pilots tidbit from their recent merger committee update, including single operations and seniority list negotiation planning.


February 11

""Latest Update: February 11, 2011

American Airlines has been in negotiations for over three years and it seems there is no end in site for them to get a new contract any time soon. Explain to us how this will not be the case at United Airlines and how we will have a fair and equitable contract sooner than far later. By sooner I mean within a few months maximum. And please don't use the excuse that "in order to achieve the synergies of the merger advertised to the investors, they need full operational integration, and this requires a JCBA". Many of us believe the company has no problem running this airline like US Airways because the labor cost savings will out weigh the cost of even an industry average contract. And Mr. Smisek is not going to give up 50+ seat express flying without a major fight.

Answer: A case could be made for United’s management to settle for running the new United with a split pilot group. However, the company has stated that they want to have a fully integrated airline as quickly as possible, because without it they will be hampered in their efforts to create a world-class airline that can compete with not only Delta but international airlines such as Emirates. US Airways has apparently made the decision to rebrand themselves as an LCC, but that strategy will limit them as to where they can compete globally. At some level it's all about ego ("mine's bigger”), but management’s question is most likely how much it will cost to achieve a JCBA. So far the company has shown that they want to move the process forward; after all, negotiations are taking place even prior to the NMB's first involvement on February 18.



I heard the company has moved the target date for a single operating certificate (SOC) to September, 2011. Once we are on a SOC the company is free to add as much 70 seat flying to CAL as they want, since there is no longer a ‘CAL’ designator. They will be able to take our combined block hours and use that number as the block hour limit. Once we have a SOC and the TA expires on December 31st, 2011, the company is free to do as they please with domiciles, fleet mixing, and furloughs.

Answer: The company still has a target date of the end of 2011 for an SOC. However, without a JCBA, there will still be two separate pilot groups in two separate operations with two separate contracts, and the CAL contractual limit of 50 seat regional jets will continue to apply to the CAL operation. The block hour limit in the UAL contract will continue to apply to the UAL pilot group operation. In other words, the company won’t be able to simply cherry-pick what’s most favorable (for them) from each contract and apply it to both operations. It is true that after December 21st, 2011, there is no restriction to UAL pilot furloughs, but reducing the number of UAL pilots would require reducing the size of the UAL operation, which in turn would require reducing the size of the UAX operation.""

With both the class of 85 and the 570 having negotiated seniority held by a side letter of agreement, how will this be incorporated into the merger?

Answer: Per ALPA merger policy, the current relative seniority of "legacy" United pilots will not change. It will be up to the Joint Negotiating Committee to determine which Letters of Agreement should be incorporated into our new contract. Those Letters of Agreement would then be subject to negotiation with the company.""

 

[exB717Flyer]

Good luck to the MDA people and I hope you brake those bastards.

The DFR suit brought by the former TWA pilots now has a trial date of June 6. The suit was filed in 2002.