US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Binding Arbitration??

No. Too late. We all voted and the 9th made it clear. USAPA and the company negotiate and nothing changes until binding ratification. Or of course one or both of the two parties could be changed. New company or new union. Cheers.

Don't forget, ALPA promised Final and Binding within their internal union process. To be sure, its a promise that is at least as good as all their other promises.

 

[Zone5]

Binding Arbitration??

As I have said, both the West and the East have legitimate concerns and issues regarding seniority which need to get worked out. The "binding arbitration" dictated by a single arbitrator in accordance with past ALPA merger policy has not achieved the desired goal of a "fair and equitable" resolution. That tune needs to be taken off the record player, put back in the album cover and placed on the shelf. Time to start playing some "funky music" instead!

Look, we are all smart guys and gals and I refuse to believe that if we wanted to, that we couldn't craft an agreement that would be satisfactory to a majority of both West and East pilots. Clearly, even the "new" ALPA merger policy, recognizes that longevity is a major factor. Something the NIC does not adequately address. Furthermore, in the case of these two pilot groups, age/career expectations are a fact of life that will need to be dealt with effectively also. There are a host of other issues: furlough protection based on pre-merger status/seniority comes to mind for instance.

Sitting around insisting on DOH, no the NIC, no DOH, no the NIC...................at nausea, will not solve anything!

seajay

 

[cleardirect]

I guess moving was the wrong word. Other than the attorney banging on the judge's door this how the court system works. My response was to indicate that ALPA didn't bleed us dead like everybody thought and we have the resourses to fight them to the end. Nobody can predict when it will come to trial. Just like the east vs west will never end. So your right the lawyers love it.

I guess you didn't know but the suit against ALPA is not to overturn the NIC, never was. It is seeking DFR montary damages against ALPA selling us out when MDA was a mainline aircraft. Where Odell is on the list and who is senior or junior to him doesn't have anything to with the MDA suit.

isv

I am glad to see you explain it that way. There are many on here that keep thinking if MDA wins the Nicolau will be changed. Would you mind saying that again for the east pilots thinking it will get them somewhere?

I do know about the MDA suit and the $175,000,000.00 being asked for from ALPA.

 

[doh nogo]

My sentiments exactly. The NIC is fatally flawed and certainly not considered, at least by the East, to be "fair and equitable". If it was, the West wouldn't want it so bad and the East wouldn't be so opposed to it. Both sides have spent over 4 MILLION dollars, to date. Nobody spends that kind of money unless they are totally committed to prevailing.

Here we go again with the "It ain't fair unless everyone is unhappy" argument. As BB already pointed out, by your metric, if the east wants DOH so bad it must be good for you and bad for everyone else.

You are wrong. We on the west want to move forward with the arbitrated award because it IS fair, it IS what we agreed to, it IS the middle ground as determined by a neutral third party, and it IS the result of a fair process. We want it even more now than before because of the arrogance of you on the east who thought you could bully us, force your will upon us, and stomp your feet until you got your way. We want it even more now that you have taken all the growth for yourselves, had furloughs come back out of their rightful Nic seniority, and kept us all on industry bottom pay for years with the temper tantrum of the AFO's.

So far, everyone concerned (except the company and ALL the lawyers) are big losers. As pilots we should all be smarter than this.

Not so fast. Don't include us in your "loser" category. We are winning where it counts... in court. It is not a skirmish but a long path paved with victories and setbacks, but we will prevail since we have the law on our side.

By doing so the company is precluded from holding the rest of the contract hostage to the ALWAYS difficult process of reaching a seniority agreement...

The only group holding anyone hostage is USAPA. They have created the circumstances that lead to the entire company being held hostage in this unfinished merger purgatory. So now you want to fault the company for believing that you would honor your agreements and follow through with your commitments.

How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years.

I'm split on this comment. One part of me sees that maybe reality is starting to set in with you. Out of ammunition, and maybe seeing the end of the road, you now want to appeal to our sensibilities with talk of the "living hell" of a poisonous work environment if we prevail. Well let me tell you, you are right... we've all been trapped in the cockpit for days with someone we'd prefer not to work with. But I have always been able to maintain a professional demeanor, do my job, get my crew to do theirs, and get through those trips safely. As long as the other person can do the same, follow FAR's, adhere to SOP's, operate safely, and serve our passengers as they expect and deserve, then I don't care if they are the most friendly person or just sit there and grunt miserably for 4 days. I come to work to fly airplanes, make money, and provide for my family. The rest is icing. And I can eat cake without icing. My job satisfaction is not dependent on anyone else.

Then there is part of me that respects your apparent desire to find a 'workable solution' and move forward. Unfortunately the time for that has come and gone. It is far too little, far too late for that. You can't try to force you will upon a person, and then when you are unsuccessful, expect them to shake your hand and be friends. You (pl) walked away from JNC talks. You filed frivolous lawsuits attacking our pilots trying to get them fired with that RICO suit. You ended the work we accomplished on our own contract negotiations. You voted ALPA out and took away our individual representation, assuring there is no one left to negotiate with. You tried to get out of binding arbitration. You created the environment.

I my perfect world, I would have been happy to move forward with Nic and a good contract, give you a lions share of the improvements, put the merger behind us, Build a strong airline that would serve us all well in the future, and then maybe talk about other ways to off-set your perceived losses (If they actually materialized) and mend fences. You guys chose a different path. Now we will all live with the results.

 

[traderjake]

The "binding arbitration" dictated by a single arbitrator in accordance with past ALPA merger policy has not achieved the desired goal of a "fair and equitable" resolution. seajay

The arbitrators of the integrations before and after the Nic award say you're wrong and it is "fair and equitable".

 

[cleardirect]

How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years.

seajay

I guess you guys should not have gone all in with DOH/LOS after the arbitrator told you not to. I guess you guys should not have gone all in with usapa and trying to dump your agreement.

If you had not gone all in the west would not have to fly with the flaming jerk off. If the east pilots act like this now when you think you(the general you not you specifically) are winning what are you guys be like when after 5 years of trying to get DOH the Nicolau shows back up and we are right where we should have been in 2007?

 

[767one]

Here we go again with the "It ain't fair unless everyone is unhappy" argument. As BB already pointed out, by your metric, if the east wants DOH so bad it must be good for you and bad for everyone else.

You are wrong. We on the west want to move forward with the arbitrated award because it IS fair, it IS what we agreed to, it IS the middle ground as determined by a neutral third party, and it IS the result of a fair process. We want it even more now than before because of the arrogance of you on the east who thought you could bully us, force your will upon us, and stomp your feet until you got your way. We want it even more now that you have taken all the growth for yourselves, had furloughs come back out of their rightful Nic seniority, and kept us all on industry bottom pay for years with the temper tantrum of the AFO's.



Not so fast. Don't include us in your "loser" category. We are winning where it counts... in court. It is not a skirmish but a long path paved with victories and setbacks, but we will prevail since we have the law on our side.


The only group holding anyone hostage is USAPA. They have created the circumstances that lead to the entire company being held hostage in this unfinished merger purgatory. So now you want to fault the company for believing that you would honor your agreements and follow through with your commitments.


I'm split on this comment. One part of me sees that maybe reality is starting to set in with you. Out of ammunition, and maybe seeing the end of the road, you now want to appeal to our sensibilities with talk of the "living hell" of a poisonous work environment if we prevail. Well let me tell you, you are right... we've all been trapped in the cockpit for days with someone we'd prefer not to work with. But I have always been able to maintain a professional demeanor, do my job, get my crew to do theirs, and get through those trips safely. As long as the other person can do the same, follow FAR's, adhere to SOP's, operate safely, and serve our passengers as they expect and deserve, then I don't care if they are the most friendly person or just sit there and grunt miserably for 4 days. I come to work to fly airplanes, make money, and provide for my family. The rest is icing. And I can eat cake without icing. My job satisfaction is not dependent on anyone else.

Then there is part of me that respects your apparent desire to find a 'workable solution' and move forward. Unfortunately the time for that has come and gone. It is far too little, far too late for that. You can't try to force you will upon a person, and then when you are unsuccessful, expect them to shake your hand and be friends. You (pl) walked away from JNC talks. You filed frivolous lawsuits attacking our pilots trying to get them fired with that RICO suit. You ended the work we accomplished on our own contract negotiations. You voted ALPA out and took away our individual representation, assuring there is no one left to negotiate with. You tried to get out of binding arbitration. You created the environment.

I my perfect world, I would have been happy to move forward with Nic and a good contract, give you a lions share of the improvements, put the merger behind us, Build a strong airline that would serve us all well in the future, and then maybe talk about other ways to off-set your perceived losses (If they actually materialized) and mend fences. You guys chose a different path. Now we will all live with the results.

dohnogo,

I'm afraid that our perfect world is being screwed up by realiity.......both sides know that the management of this airline is focused on one thing. That one thing is the next merger. Both sides also know that in a merger more than likely pilots will be furloughed. Unless someone can come up with an ironclad guarantee (most unilikely) that no pilot will ever be furloughed within 15 or 20 years of the next mreger then we are stuck where we are fighting to the end to protect the junior pilots on our sides of the property

I'm not smart enough to figure this out but I sincerely hope that someone on either or both sides of this issue IS smart enough otherwise this will go on forever.

Regards,

Bob

 

[Black Swan]

Points all worth re-reading.

Now can someone on the east tell us again how DFR I is dead and vanished into thin air as if it never happened, while at the same time it is still being discussed in Judge Sliver's courtroom? What about that evidence that can't be "imported?"

OK, I will. Just like Wake. If she even dares go there, she will get her spanking also. It did vanish, but the correct terminology is CLEAN SLATE in case you forgot......Remember, Silver better be VERY careful with this little hot potato. If she tries to plow new legal ground that the 9th already ruled on, she is going to get teed up by the 9th clerks. Also the Supreme Court. I guarantee she will not even begin to try to re do anything her superior judicial entity has already ruled on. I really don't care what Koontz and the rest of the Leonidas braintrust put out there. They are dead wrong on Addington having any weight with anything. If she tries to go there, she will get what that loon Wake got.This is very funny how the west legal braintrust thinks an Arizona judge can come back in and undo what the 9th did! Tell us how that happens KEEP THE DONATIONS COMING!

 

[Metroyet]

No. Too late. We all voted and the 9th made it clear. USAPA and the company negotiate and nothing changes until binding ratification.

Wrong Kimosabee. You're referring to the 9th's opinion on Addington. The companies DJ is totally different. The Judge already told them that if they didn't want to get sued, they knew what to do. As per normal, ratification is meaningless.

 

[No Land Green]

With the successful merger of DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL; along with the pending corporate combination between SWA/AT, US Airways is once again caught in the middle of top-tier legacy companies and strong low cost carriers.


Regards,

USA320Pilot

I love asking people at work these two questions out of the blue and the answers I get:

1. Does a PHX hub work with a DEN hub? NO

2. Does a PHX hub work with a DFW hub? NO

Hmmmmm, me still thinks the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Wonder why the NIC Award is so important to the West. Separate ops facilitates fragmentation.........If Parker wanted a joint contract he would make an offer we couldn't refuse. Nic bought Parker unforseen flexibility. The industry is in constant change, and Tempe needs a buyer(s).

 

[Black Swan]

An East pilots' dream. Judge Silver rules the company is bound to use the Nicolau, then the company implements it. PLEASE make it happen! Then let it sit for 30 days and take the entire group of them down. WITH DAMAGES. Using Dougs' fireside chat in PHX as evidence he knew full well what he was facing. "THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE........."

 

[luvthe9]

An East pilots' dream. Judge Silver rules the company is bound to use the Nicolau, then the company implements it. PLEASE make it happen! Then let it sit for 30 days and take the entire group of them down. WITH DAMAGES. Using Dougs' fireside chat in PHX as evidence he knew full well what he was facing. "THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE........."

Make it happen Roselyn! Funny how Wake was thinking the same thing, but backed right down when he was facing the prospect of NMB lawyers parachuting into his courtroom! What is with these Arizona judges? We got Miranda as a result of the crackpot judicial system out there. They make law a big hobby!

 

[Phoenix]

Wrong Kimosabee. You're referring to the 9th's opinion on Addington. The companies DJ is totally different. The Judge already told them that if they didn't want to get sued, they knew what to do. As per normal, ratification is meaningless.

The 9th already told Silver all she needs to know about who will negotiate the outcome and when you get to try DFR II.

 

[Metroyet]

"THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE........."

How about this little beauty from Parker..."Sometimes I say things that aren't really true..."

That was his disclaimer to everything. The courts will decide. He's said that over and over again as well...as if it matters.

 

[luvthe9]

Points all worth re-reading.

Now can someone on the east tell us again how DFR I is dead and vanished into thin air as if it never happened, while at the same time it is still being discussed in Judge Sliver's courtroom? What about that evidence that can't be "imported?"

Now this is a real interesting post Jetzz! Now tell us how most US school kids discuss the Dred Scott Decision and the slave acts as historical judicial rulings, yet they mean absolutely NOTHING in present day judicial credence or relevance.Why don't you quote 1700 South Carolina Slave law in a trial and tell us a judge is going to admit it. Keep reading what Koontz and the amateurs put out there. It costs your team lots of money and time for nothing.