US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Your argument is full of holes.

It doesn't matter how the Mid Atlantic pilots got there, they were finally ruled to have maintained their DOH seniority on the mainline, as promised by management all along. The delay was in getting management to stick to what they promised the pilots and admit that the pilots were never furloughed. Management finally admitted to this info 10 days before the deadline, but it was never included.

The amount of money I am investing to make this right is my business and my choice.

I hope you've got a lot of money to throw down that hole, since the one whose argument is full of holes is you. Just to give you one of your holes, pilots on furlough always have their seniority number unless they retire, resign, or otherwise give up their seniority number whether they went to MDA, other J4J's position or any other job. Just look at the 1991 and 2002 furloughees - MDA didn't exist yet they retained their mainline seniority number except as mentioned above.

Jim

 

[767one]

That's what I'm talking about! But my blabbering tonight is behind some Percocet's for my throbbing jaw surgery......except for management, we're all going to get screwed, BY EACH OTHER!

trevrep,


I hope your jaw gets better soon.

Regards,

Bob

 

[luvthe9]

My biggest concern with USAPA's approach to the pilot seniority integration is for long-term viability of the business franchise............Regards,

USA320Pilot

You biggest concern should be whether you are going to be fired. (AGAIN) Cleary and Parella might not save you this time.!!!!

 

[fodase]

February 11, 2011

Leonidas Update

We reiterate our belief that the best source for following what transpired at the February 9th hearing is to read the transcripts once they become available. We strongly encourage all Airways pilots to read and draw their own conclusions. Take no one’s word or opinions as gospel – read for yourself. The following is our recounting of what transpired. We will post the transcripts on www.cactuspilot.com as soon as we receive them.

The hearing lasted for approximately 90 minutes. Judge Silver began by remarking that she knows the facts to this case and she is “well acquainted” with what happened to the present. She explicitly mentioned that any other motions or arguments would not be discussed; the hearing was to focus on USAPA’s motion to dismiss the Airways’ complaint. She said that she normally sends a draft opinion to the litigants prior to a hearing like this, but that this case is difficult. Each of the parties in this case had received a list of questions from the court prior to the hearing.

Bob Siegel, the lead counsel for the company, argued first and he was at the podium for about 45 minutes. It was a mix of prepared arguments with Judge Silver interjecting questions. The focus of the questioning was: (i) the legal standard for ripeness in declaratory actions; (ii) what has changed since the company was dismissed as a defendant in Addington; and (iii) why Airways needs declaratory relief.

The substance of Mr. Siegel’s legal argument that the declaratory action is ripe tracked identically with his arguments in Airways’ Reply brief [Doc 61] to USAPA’s Motion to Dismiss. We can summarize the thrust of Mr. Siegel’s ripeness argument by cutting and pasting from his reply brief:

“In short, US Airways’ acquiescence in, or rejection of, USAPA’s demands for a non-Nicolau seniority list as part of a single CBA is akin to what the Supreme Court described in MedImmune as destroying a building, betting the farm, or risking damages and the loss of business, or what the Ninth Circuit described in NBA as the type of Damoclean threat that the Declaratory Judgment Act is designed to avoid–it is the very act which will expose US Airways to inevitable harm. MedImmune and NBA allow US Airways’ declaratory judgment claims to be resolved now, so that US Airways can avoid taking any action that would give rise to a ripe suit against it for breaching its obligations under the RLA” Airways Reply to USAPA MTD, Doc 61, pp. 11-12.

Interestingly, at the bottom of page 12 Airways argues this:

“US Airways does not believe it can be held liable to the West Pilots, see Rakestraw v. United Airlines, Inc., 765 F. Supp. 474, 493-94 (N.D. Ill. 1991), aff’d in part and rev’d in part, 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992), but it has a ripe claim for a declaratory judgment to that effect before the West Pilots’ claim against it becomes ripe.” Airways Reply, Doc 61, p. 12.

Above, you see Mr. Siegel plainly stating that US Airways does not believe it can be held liable to pilots. However, the “belief” tone you read in the brief is not the tone he argued with before Judge Silver. On Wednesday Mr. Siegel seemed noticeably more circumspect; he carefully explained that under Rakestraw air carriers can be held liable for aiding and abetting the adoption of an illegal contract. He then distinguished the facts of Rakestraw, with our present situation; particularly that the DFR has already been presented to a jury and a unanimous verdict was returned against the union. Mr. Siegel said that Airways now has that same proposal. We agree and we have said all along that although Addington was dismissed on a technicality, it would be imprudent for anyone in this dispute to ignore what the jury found and how little time it took for them to deliberate. What we do not recall is Mr. Siegel mentioning the Transition Agreement at this point (and it’s possible he did), but the TA is yet another giant distinction from Rakestraw. His client signed the TA, and the TA spelled out the process of determining seniority very clearly. We conducted the arbitration and Mr. Siegel’s client accepted the result in accordance with the TA. Clearly Airways can be held liable and there is no reason to think that a fact finder would reach a different conclusion in DFR II than in DFR I. It is that potential liability that was the focus of Wednesday’s hearing. Although we’re digressing here on what is really a side issue, we were simply puzzled by the position the company took in Doc. 61. In our opinion the company would have forfeited nothing or admitted nothing had they been as candid in Doc. 61 as they were at oral arguments. Clearly, liability is a danger to the company should they agree to a non-Nicolau list. The concern is not what a number of disgruntled pilots will do to wreak havoc on Airways’ operations via an illegal job action. Rather, the concern is what the West will do via litigation if a non-Nicolau list is agreed to by the company.

Judge Silver also pressed Mr. Siegel as to why the company didn’t file a declaratory action earlier. His answer wrapped back around to the circumstances leading up to the Addington trial and Ninth’s opinion. The company was dismissed from Addington early, there was a jury verdict against USAPA on the exact seniority proposal by USAPA, the Ninth Cir. did not resolve the seniority dispute, and the company is now in federally mediated contract negotiations under Section 6 of the RLA. Now the company has to do something it has adroitly avoided for five years: it has to take a position.

To this, Mr. Siegel proffered that seniority is something that the company is ill suited to negotiate. He distinguished seniority from standard staple contract provisions such as pay and vacation by asking rhetorically what the company is supposed to do; proffer an alternative to DOH? It is here that we at Leonidas think that the core problem for USAPA is being exposed. Mr. Siegel is dead right that they were only involved in seniority to the extent called for by the Transition Agreement. The process to determine seniority was internal, and that process called for a binding arbitration. Mr. Siegel pointed out that by offering a different seniority list to the company; USAPA is in effect trying to modify the Transition Agreement. If one looks to the Addington jury, that amendment is illegal. This is where Mr. Siegel characterized the company’s position as a Hobson’s choice: accept a proposal that has already been found to be illegal by one jury, or risk being found to violate the Railway Labor Act.

Now, notwithstanding the black and white provisions of the T/A which delineate the company’s duties and responsibilities in the seniority process, apparently not lost on the court is what the company could have done to mitigate this seniority dispute. Specifically, Judge Silver asked if there was a way that one side would accept either the Nicolau or a non-Nicolau list. She suggested whether a comprehensive retirement package could be offered to assuage the East. The court was clearly following the suggestion by the Ninth Circuit that perhaps USAPA can craft a list acceptable to both East and West, and it appeared to Leonidas that Judge Silver was going down that road. We welcome such an inquiry as we have always maintained that what Judges Tashima and Graber proposed is completely impracticable; such a solution can only exist in the ideal where money isn’t a factor. We can sit around and dream up all kinds of hypothetical solutions to resolving seniority, but US Airways can’t create money out of thin air like the Federal Reserve can. Money is probably not available to fix this as evidenced by seeing the hairs stand up on the back of Mr. Siegel’s neck when Judge Silver mused about the company offering full retirements for pilots as a means of buying labor peace.

Similarly, it appears the resolve isn’t there in our management to do what they can to fix this out of court. Mr. Siegel deftly dodged Judge Silver’s inquiry on what the company could do or could have done to mitigate this dispute, but that does not change Parker’s glaring silence over the past four years of this dispute. We welcome Judge Silver recognizing what the company can do to fix this situation – they can lead. She said that negotiations are a give and take and reminded him that he knew how to make the West pilots not sue. She asked what would happen if she did not grant the DJ or order to complete to which Mr. Siegel replied we don’t know if the proposal is legal or not. She did not seem fooled by the company’s recent interest in this dispute and went as far as to refer to them as “Johnny come lately”.

Judge Silver wrapped up the company’s argument time by pressing Mr. Siegel for any case law that touches on the issue of ripeness of declaratory actions post MedImmune and NBA. Mr. Siegel declined to provide cases and holdings on the spot, but instead preferred to provide the court with a tabulation of relevant cases decided after MedImmune and NBA. She also pressed Mr. Siegel over what would be acceptable to the company in terms of importing evidence from Addington. To this Mr. Siegel appeared to be open to anything that sped the declaratory action along, including importing evidence from Addington. She also asked Mr. Siegel – when does this all end?

Next up was Seham. We are inclined to not comment on his arguments for three reasons: (1) he rambled: (2) he didn’t answer questions directly; and (3) you’ve heard this all before. We’ll just sum it up in bullet form:

• Nicolau was abominable;
• Five month pilots were placed ahead of 17 year pilots;
• The company filed the dec action in bad faith;
• East pilots are at the bottom of the barrel;
• Judge Wake didn’t let him present his case;
• Seham would insist on starting over if there is a trial in the company’s case;
• Rakestraw and scabs let you reorder a list;
• Leonidas is bad for West pilots;
• Only a handful of West pilots support Leonidas;
• West pilots threaten and intimidate those who want to help USAPA;
• USAPA is not coming off DOH;
• USAPA is the compromise;
• USAPA is good for West pilots and here to protect their interests.

The only thing you’ll miss in the transcripts versus actually being present is that you will have missed Seham’s reaction when he stated the last bullet point, and the 40 or so West pilots in attendance erupted in laughter. Judge Silver did not call for order, she just watched as Seham spun around red-faced and glared at the gallery for a few moments. We also found it interesting that Seham claimed the “Leonidas Group” was made up of only a few disgruntled employees. Only to later lament that the union cannot effectively strike if 1800 west pilots are willing to cross the picket line. Which is it? Seham leaned on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion that the case was not ripe. Judge Silver wanted to know what was different or what had changed since the opinion as to which Seham said nothing had changed. He referred to Ninth’s quote that a final proposal had not been accepted to which the west might not find harm in.

Judge Silver’s questioning focused on whether harm to the company had never been addressed by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. She said that their opinion is open to more than one interpretation, and that the letters sent to the Mr. Siegel by the attorneys for the West pilots threatening a lawsuit if a non-Nicolau seniority list was implemented changed the situation post Ninth. Seham claimed that the Ninth addressed potential harm to the company when in fact he could not support that claim. The only reference to the company that Judge Silver identified was in Judge Bybee’s dissent.

Last up was Marty Harper and he was at the podium for approximately 10 minutes. Judge Silver led the questioning as it was evident that at that point, she had what she needed from the other two lawyers. All she seemed to be interested in is whether the West will sue if a non-Nicolau list is agreed to. The answer to this was absolutely. She asked about the two letters Marty sent to Mr. Siegel to which Marty replied that it was his hope to get the company to outright come out and take a position on the Nicolau. Instead, we got the declaratory action. Marty used a basketball metaphor to describe what the company is doing: it’s a jump ball and the East and West pilots are having to scramble for possession. Marty also reminded the court that four million dollars was spent on Addington and it makes every bit of sense to use as much of that evidence in the Airways declaratory action. With that, Judge Silver thanked all and adjourned.

In closing, we want to express our gratitude for your financial support. Yes Seham, there’s an overwhelming percentage of West pilots who support this litigation financially, and 99.9% who support the goals of Leonidas. It should be plainly obvious to you Seham and your cadre that the West is well funded and very committed.

Lastly, we would like to remind all West pilots that our Flight Attendants will be picketing in PHX on February 17th from 9:00am-11:00am. This is your opportunity to return the same sort of moral support to our colleagues in the cabin who have faithfully offered their support in our fight against DOH.

Have a great weekend.

Sincerely,

Leonidas LLC

 

[crazystnic]

My biggest concern with USAPA's approach to the pilot seniority integration is for long-term viability of the business franchise, which I believe is being placed into jeopardy by USAPA. For years-and-years East-coast based employees have lived on the edge because US Airways was too small to compete with larger legacy carriers and not nimble enough to compete with low cost carriers like Southwest, JetBlue, and AirTran.

With the successful merger of DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL; along with the pending corporate combination between SWA/AT, US Airways is once again caught in the middle of top-tier legacy companies and strong low cost carriers.

With US Airways' revenue disadvantage management will be under extreme pressure to keep costs low to permit the company to close the financial gap with US Airways' competitors. 2010 was a good year for US Airways and the company built its cash reserves and paid down some debt, which in the short-term will help US Airways survive a negative catastrophic macro-economic event. However, US Airways could be one industry shock event or volatile energy price change away from entering bankruptcy again if the industry collapses.

How ironic it would be for USAPA and its supporters to continue their efforts that prevents US Airways from merging with UAL, DAL, or AA and USAPA's supporters and 32,000 US Airways' professionals lose their job because a shock event occurred during this fight before US Airways can merge.

All of this risk for a couple of years upgrade delay for some of US Airways' East Coast-based F/Os.

For those that believe USAPA is not risking 32,000 US Airways jobs because the carrier likely cannot merge to create career job security can you tell me why the union told the 9th Circut Court:

1. Continued corporate and labor negotiations for a merger are impeded by uncertainty regarding labor integration issues.

2. This has been identified as one of the principal obstacles to a major corporate merger.

3. A present emergency results from the fact that the pending injunction will prevent a corporate merger that would create an airline capable of competing with the recent Delta/Northwest. If the pilot seniority integration problem is not immediately solved this will thwart economic benefits (of the merger) and preservation of jobs that might accrue to the corporations and employees, including Appellees.

See Story

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I'm glad that no other east pilot feels like you. This is not Labor's problem... we have a great leader in Cleary for our current situation.. He is going to hold MGMT's feet to the fire.. Remember nobody cares at this point if this place tanks. The job is not worth it with the current pay and conditions. We will get an industry standard contract with or withouth you.. So stand down...

oh and by the way, glad you are willing to delay an EAST F.O upgrade further Captain.

 

[700UW]

And how has that been working out for the past four years?

No CBA, No Raises.

Yep Cleary is doing a wonderful job.

 

[isvlives2]

MDA lawsuit? I thought they were suing ALPA. What happened to that lawsuit anyway?

The suit is against ALPA. And it is alive and well moving through the court fully funded by the MDA pilots.

isvlives2

 

[nic4us]

It doesn't matter how the Mid Atlantic pilots got there, they were finally ruled to have maintained their DOH seniority on the mainline,

Binding Arbitration...ppfffttt! There's nothing binding about it when it is so flawed from the beginning!

Good for them. Now I would ask, are any MDA pilots senior to Monda?

Whether MDA is considered furloughed or not is inconsequential unless some are senior to Monda.

Monda is the dividing line, if a pilot is junior to Monda, then they are junior to Odell, regardless of their percieved status or where they were working on the PID. In case you may have missed it the first dozen or so times the east was told, you are not getting a DOH integration.



What was flawed in the beginning of the arbitration that would negate the fact that it is binding? I see nothing in the process that would support your claim. Care to elaborate?

 

[isvlives2]

How many MDA pilots 'elected' to go there? I'm talking about AAA pilots, that had not been furloughed? How many? MDA was created and staffed with furloughed pilots. Your interpretation is off cue, as usual.

Your right it was staffed by furloughed AAA pilots. To be on "separate operating certificate".

When that didn't happen and a backdoor deal was made with ALPA MEC that we fly under mainline's certificate. We used mainline FOM, mainline facilities, mainline chief pilot and MDA pilots were elected in AAA ALPA positions, mainline tax ID for payroll. Even the FAA wanted "Express" removed from the aircraft. Mainline purchased the 170 simulator and it is use today training 190 pilots.

Instead of selling out MDA pilots when it was put on mainline's certificate, the ALPA MEC should have demanded a recall to fly the 170 on a mainline contract. But it I guess it was to easier to screw a junior group of 300 pilots.

isv

 

[fodase]

Instead of selling out MDA pilots when it was put on mainline's certificate, the ALPA MEC should have demanded a recall to fly the 170 on a mainline contract. But it I guess it was to easier to screw a junior group of 300 pilots.

isv

The same guys that got you loa 93 did that, they are the same one's that are running usapa now. Guess what is going to happen with those clowns in charge?

 

[nic4us]

The suit is against ALPA. And it is alive and well moving through the court fully funded by the MDA pilots.

isvlives2

Great! I just do not see how the fact that MDA pilots are suing ALPA will change anything in the Nic.

Did ALPA re-arrange the east seniority list prior to submission to the arbitrator, or is the east list that was submitted in the correct order? Forget whether MDA was furloughed or not. Did the sequence of names on the east list change? Did any east pilot challenge their respective position on the submitted east list prior to the arbitrators award?

What I think is trying to be argued here is that if one does not consider the MDA pilots furloughed, then none of the east pilots would be considered furloughed, or something of that nature. Then a grossly false, huge extrapolation over how the list should have been constructed is assumed.

When it comes to the Nic, the first primary thing the east has yet to understand is, the West was not added to the east list. Your DOH on the east list is irrelevant, other than how the east list is sequenced. If you are junior to Monda on the east list, you are junior to Odell on the combined list.

 

[isvlives2]

Great! I just do not see how the fact that MDA pilots are suing ALPA will change anything in the Nic.

It may or may not. That is a pandora box that won't be opened unit the MDA suit is settled.

What I think is trying to be argued here is that if one does not consider the MDA pilots furloughed, then none of the east pilots would be considered furloughed, or something of that nature.

Only east pilots that turned down MDA, but they made a decision based on MDA being a separate company when it was mainline in disguise. So they chose to remain furloughed because of false information. This is part of the huge mess created by the then ALPA MEC.

isv

 

[mrbreeze]

This is part of the huge mess created by the then ALPA MEC.

isv
[/quote]

Very true, along with the fact that ALPA National was mainly driven by pilots from other airlines that wanted to see USAirways "just go away" to solve the over capacity problem in the industry and make their companies more healthy.

The messes created by ALPA, ALPA National, USAir management, LOAs, the Nic award, USAPA....just wherever you want to put the blame for today......have gotten worse and worse. It's like an unsolvable Rubic's cube.

I don't want to take anything from anyone in the West and I suspect the same is true for most West pilots. I would like to see us just start over and find some kind of middle ground that we can live with. We will not all be happy, but I think we can do much better than this.

 

[cleardirect]

The suit is against ALPA. And it is alive and well moving through the court fully funded by the MDA pilots.

isvlives2

Really!

Alive and well and moving through the courts?

A summary judgment was filed in June last year and NOTHING has happened since then. Is that what you consider moving?

If it is not dismissed just when do you think that it MAY even come to trial? 2012?

Exactly how if you win against ALPA will that have any effect on the Nicolau award? You are all junior to Monda. Nicolau placed the WB pilots above west pilots because that is supposed to be "premium" flying. So what do you think furloughed and CEL pilots flying 170's would be considered? Sub premium? 170 pilots would still be placed junior to 737/320 pilots making more money.

Furloughed, not furloughed- mainline, not mainline, still junior to Dave Odell.

Keep spending that money the lawyers love it.

 

[Freebird]

I'm glad that no other east pilot feels like you. This is not Labor's problem... we have a great leader in Cleary for our current situation.. He is going to hold MGMT's feet to the fire.. Remember nobody cares at this point if this place tanks. The job is not worth it with the current pay and conditions. We will get an industry standard contract with or withouth you.. So stand down...

oh and by the way, glad you are willing to delay an EAST F.O upgrade further Captain.

AFO,

That is EXACTLY why Cleary is AFRAID to put a contract with the Nicolau Award up for a vote. He KNOWS IT WILL PASS. There are too many East and West pilots that disagree with your mentality about this place tanking. You really should cut your losses.



USAPA = We will get an industry standard contract with or withouth you.. So stand down...

oh and by the way, glad you are willing to delay an EAST F.O upgrade further Captain