US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Freebird]

Very true, along with the fact that ALPA National was mainly driven by pilots from other airlines that wanted to see USAirways "just go away" to solve the over capacity problem in the industry and make their companies more healthy.

The messes created by ALPA, ALPA National, USAir management, LOAs, the Nic award, USAPA....just wherever you want to put the blame for today......have gotten worse and worse. It's like an unsolvable Rubic's cube.

I don't want to take anything from anyone in the West and I suspect the same is true for most West pilots. I would like to see us just start over and find some kind of middle ground that we can live with. We will not all be happy, but I think we can do much better than this.

You took the West's ability to negotiate away when your formed USAPA. Bad move. Your sisters will continue to blame everyone because of their lack of 'career'. USAPA knows how to end this. Protect its membership and put out a contract with the NIC. It's your only move. Blame USAPA. USAPA is you.



USAPA = Blame Game ! Step right up ! Who's in?

 

[767jetz]

I'm glad that no other east pilot feels like you.

Pretty bold statement coming from the side that always asks for proof, yet loves to make unsubstantiated claims.

Care to show us the proof? How about a vote? Results to a third party pole? Anything? No? Really? OK. Then we all believe you.

Much to your disappointment, no one will be "standing down." The wheels have once again started to turn in the courts. We will all have our answer in due time.

 

[Ames]

I don't want to take anything from anyone in the West and I suspect the same is true for most West pilots. I would like to see us just start over and find some kind of middle ground that we can live with. We will not all be happy, but I think we can do much better than this.

The arbitrator's decision IS the middle ground. No need to start over. I suppose that will never sink in to the myopic minds of the east.

 

[767jetz]

I would like to see us just start over and find some kind of middle ground that we can live with.

Too late.

 

[767jetz]

February 11, 2011

Leonidas Update

particularly that the DFR has already been presented to a jury and a unanimous verdict was returned against the union. Mr. Siegel said that Airways now has that same proposal. We agree and we have said all along that although Addington was dismissed on a technicality, it would be imprudent for anyone in this dispute to ignore what the jury found and how little time it took for them to deliberate.

She also pressed Mr. Siegel over what would be acceptable to the company in terms of importing evidence from Addington. To this Mr. Siegel appeared to be open to anything that sped the declaratory action along, including importing evidence from Addington. She also asked Mr. Siegel – when does this all end?

Marty also reminded the court that four million dollars was spent on Addington and it makes every bit of sense to use as much of that evidence in the Airways declaratory action. With that, Judge Silver thanked all and adjourned.

Points all worth re-reading.

Now can someone on the east tell us again how DFR I is dead and vanished into thin air as if it never happened, while at the same time it is still being discussed in Judge Sliver's courtroom? What about that evidence that can't be "imported?"

 

[isvlives2]

Really!

Alive and well and moving through the courts?

A summary judgment was filed in June last year and NOTHING has happened since then. Is that what you consider moving?

If it is not dismissed just when do you think that it MAY even come to trial? 2012?

Exactly how if you win against ALPA will that have any effect on the Nicolau award? You are all junior to Monda. Nicolau placed the WB pilots above west pilots because that is supposed to be "premium" flying. So what do you think furloughed and CEL pilots flying 170's would be considered? Sub premium? 170 pilots would still be placed junior to 737/320 pilots making more money.

Furloughed, not furloughed- mainline, not mainline, still junior to Dave Odell.

Keep spending that money the lawyers love it.

I guess moving was the wrong word. Other than the attorney banging on the judge's door this how the court system works. My response was to indicate that ALPA didn't bleed us dead like everybody thought and we have the resourses to fight them to the end. Nobody can predict when it will come to trial. Just like the east vs west will never end. So your right the lawyers love it.

I guess you didn't know but the suit against ALPA is not to overturn the NIC, never was. It is seeking DFR montary damages against ALPA selling us out when MDA was a mainline aircraft. Where Odell is on the list and who is senior or junior to him doesn't have anything to with the MDA suit.

isv

 

[CallawayGolf]

Points all worth re-reading.

Now can someone on the east tell us again how DFR I is dead and vanished into thin air as if it never happened, while at the same time it is still being discussed in Judge Sliver's courtroom? What about that evidence that can't be "imported?"

Is anyone surprised that $$$$$$eham wants to start all over if the DJ trial goes forward. Now who would personally benefit from a do over on the merits of DFR I on the current trial? Could it be the same lawyer who lost but gets to charge his clients for a brand new case? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$eham sure is a piece of work. Getting paid to lose twice because losing once just doesn't pay enough must be his motto.

 

[Zone5]

This is part of the huge mess created by the then ALPA MEC.

isv
[/quote]

Very true, along with the fact that ALPA National was mainly driven by pilots from other airlines that wanted to see USAirways "just go away" to solve the over capacity problem in the industry and make their companies more healthy.

The messes created by ALPA, ALPA National, USAir management, LOAs, the Nic award, USAPA....just wherever you want to put the blame for today......have gotten worse and worse. It's like an unsolvable Rubic's cube.

I don't want to take anything from anyone in the West and I suspect the same is true for most West pilots. I would like to see us just start over and find some kind of middle ground that we can live with. We will not all be happy, but I think we can do much better than this.
[/quote]


My sentiments exactly. The NIC is fatally flawed and certainly not considered, at least by the East, to be "fair and equitable". If it was, the West wouldn't want it so bad and the East wouldn't be so opposed to it. Both sides have spent over 4 MILLION dollars, to date. Nobody spends that kind of money unless they are totally committed to prevailing. So far, everyone concerned (except the company and ALL the lawyers) are big losers. As pilots we should all be smarter than this.

ALPA failed the pilots of this airline miserably. The process never should have gotten to the point of mutually opposing firing squads. The dues hit to ALPA National was a real wake-up call for them, that's why they promptly rewrote their merger policy.

http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0%3D&tabid=3345

Had they not done so and the next two mergers gone as badly, they would be OUT OF BUSINESS with the potential loss of DAL, NWA, United and Continental. By separating seniority integration from the JCBA and establishing a new policy that must consider, when constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, must now include but is not limited to; career expectations, longevity, and status and category. The order and weight of these factors is a matter to be determined by the specific pilot groups involved in the merger being consummated.

ALPA is correct in now separating seniority from the rest of the contract. By doing so the company is precluded from holding the rest of the contract hostage to the ALWAYS difficult process of reaching a seniority agreement, which is why ALPA also decided to incorporate the use of a panel of three arbitrators, if necessary, as the standard for the new merger policy. As both I and "Dougie" have stated before, the company DOES NOT CARE how seniority is decided, outside of covering their ass liability wise and with respect to minimizing additional training costs. It could be argued with the latter, that the company would prefer an agreement which maintained the status quo.

With very few exceptions, I have seldom met a pilot who didn't just want to fly their favorite airplane and forget about the company once the brake is set after the last leg of the trip. Favorite airplane being defined as the one that pay's the most and provides the best possible quality of life afforded by ones position on the list.

How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years.

seajay

 

[isvlives2]

How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years.

seajay

Well said. The only legacy these two pilot groups will have for the industry to learn from is that we were so stupid we sued each other to extinction.

isv

 

[Phoenix]

...

ALPA failed the pilots of this airline miserably. The process never should have gotten to the point of mutually opposing firing squads. The dues hit to ALPA National was a real wake-up call for them, that's why they promptly rewrote their merger policy.

http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0%3D&tabid=3345

Had they not done so and the next two mergers gone as badly, they would be OUT OF BUSINESS...

seajay, Great link!

I had to LMAO that the responsibility to change ALPO merger policy, (even more so than the fact that he authored the article) was given to "Capt. Michael Arcamuzi
(FedEx Express), THe Merger Policy Review Committee Chairman."

He is the one who was front and center in the attempt to save USAir for ALPO back during the USAPA vs. ALPO election (Mike Arcamuzi schlepping for ALPA).


Supposedly Arcamuzi says that...

The Committee agreed early on that its goal was to develop a policy that would be fair, equitable, and durable.

If he had lobbied ALPO to do the right thing and follow the ALPO merger policy that was supposed to be fair and equitable the first time, then they would not have lost USAir and they would not have to be going through their song and dance about changing things to peddle the apparition that they are the vanguards of "fair and equitable."

The new merger policy blathers on with platitudes and does nothing except use flowery words to effectively reinforce the same message, "Good luck. Sorry if you get screwed, you can't blame us. P.S Don't forget to keep sending your dues so we can produce cool, persuasive charades. We're ALPA. You're ALPA. Wave the flag. Love, ya. Promise."

 

[BoeingBoy]

... along with the fact that ALPA National was mainly driven by pilots from other airlines that wanted to see USAirways "just go away" to solve the over capacity problem in the industry and make their companies more healthy.

If that were true, would not ALPA have been advocating against any concessions and then striking if the company abrogated the contract? A strike would have almost certainly been the end of US, but the concessions (by all employee groups) allowed US to survive long enough to reach the merger.

The NIC is fatally flawed and certainly not considered, at least by the East, to be "fair and equitable". If it was, the West wouldn't want it so bad and the East wouldn't be so opposed to it.

One could say the reverse. DOH is so fatally flawed and certainly not considered, at least by the West, to be "fair and equitable". If it was, the East wouldn't want it so bad and the West wouldn't be so opposed to it.

 

[Zone5]

If that were true, would not ALPA have been advocating against any concessions and then striking if the company abrogated the contract? A strike would have almost certainly been the end of US, but the concessions (by all employee groups) allowed US to survive long enough to reach the merger.



One could say the reverse. DOH is so fatally flawed and certainly not considered, at least by the West, to be "fair and equitable". If it was, the East wouldn't want it so bad and the West wouldn't be so opposed to it.

Agreed. That's why I ended my post with the following:

"How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years."

There are real concerns and issues regarding seniority that neither position adequately addresses.

Like I asked, how do we get there from here?

seajay

 

[Metroyet]

Agreed. That's why I ended my post with the following:

"How do we get there from here? If either side prevails in their seniority positions as currently envisioned, flying at this airline will become a living hell! We've all flown that four day trip from hell, trapped in the cockpit with the biggest flaming jerk-off who ever passed a checkride. Does anybody really want to deal with that sort of environment for the next however many years."

There are real concerns and issues regarding seniority that neither position adequately addresses.

Like I asked, how do we get there from here?

seajay

Binding Arbitration??

 

[nycbusdriver]

Is anyone surprised that $$$$$$eham wants to start all over if the DJ trial goes forward.

Okay with me, as long as the west has to pay a goodly share of his fees through dues and non-member administrative fees.

 

[767one]

And how has that been working out for the past four years?

No CBA, No Raises.

Yep Cleary is doing a wonderful job.

700uw,

I must say that compared to alpa Mike Cleary and usapa have done a great job. We haven't given away another pension, have not taken another 40% paycut, haven't lost more sick leave and vacation etc,ect,ect. We lost all those things because as a group we felt our jobs were more important than our careers and all of these things happened under alpa's protection. If alpa was still here we would more than likely being paying 149.00/hr. for the priviledge of working here!

Regards,
Bob